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Multilingualism: a virtue or a plague

Автор Alaŭdo, мая 27, 2006, 18:09

0 Пользователи и 1 гость просматривают эту тему.

Alaŭdo

Good and fluent command of many languages pertains to many visitors of this forum. My question will address exactly those: how do you think, it is more a virtue or a plague -- the ability to speak many (let's say more than 3 foreign) languages? What advantages or disadvantages could it have?

Vertaler

Цитата: Alaŭdo от мая 27, 2006, 18:09
Good and fluent command of many languages pertains to many visitors of this forum. My question will address exactly those: how do you think, it is more a virtue or a plague -- the ability to speak many (let's say more than 3 foreign) languages? What advantages or disadvantages could it have?
Why a virtue or a plague? It's great, and that's it.  :green:

I think there can be no disadvantage if you really like it. And if you don't feel going crazy everything is OK.
Стрч прст в крк и вынь сухим.

Prokurator

Цитата: Vertaler от мая 27, 2006, 18:48
I think there can be no disadvantage if you really like it.

Yet, let us not forget that knowing too much holds some disadvantages. People calling you smart ass and stuff like this... ;D

Or, as Ecclesiastes would put it: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow".
Se on täyttä hepreaa

Oleksij

I guess you're right. But, then- just don't tell anyone how smart you are, until the moment comes. Then, instead of calling you a smart ass, they'll, perhaps thank you... or perhaps they won't.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Tony

I think it just depends on where you are. A friend of mine lives in the in the deep South of the USA where many are highly suspicious when it comes to languages, so he better is quiet until the right moment comes. ;)


I know this thread mainly addresses fluent speakers but personally I see the disadvantages a few steps earlier.
  A problem of learning multiple languages I have is that I mix them in my brain from time to time which can become tedious, if you are searching for a word, e. g. if I want to write in French it's not very helpful, if my brain give me Russian words instead of French ones, or when I want to write in Russian I sometimes have to think of Esperanto words. Nevertheless, I think that you have this problem only, if you are not yet advanced enough in the languages you are learning because I have this problem with English only very rarely.

What are your experiences?

Jumis

Цитата: "Tony" от
A problem of learning multiple languages I have is that I mix them in my brain from time to time

And so do I :)

What is more awful is my usage of English grammar in Russian daily communication at home etc. It tended on TV, as it can be observed.

I will never simplify Russian grammar in writing (as there's a time enough to think) but I make lapses in speech. Well begin is half done and time will show if we break our native languages for the International one.  :what:
Ужасный чудными делами
Дзержинец мира искони
Он нашими решил судьбами
Себя прославить в эти дни

SS

Rég volt, együtt jártunk még,
Bennem marad a kép, ma is oly szép:
Arcod a szélben szinte száll,
Hallom nevetésed muzsikáját.
------------------------------------------------
Á É Í Ó Ú Ö Ü Ő Ű
á é í ó ú ö ü ő ű

Jumis

Цитата: SS от августа 14, 2006, 11:26
Цитата: "Jumis" от
And so do I :)
Yes, I've caught myself at thinking "Was ist das?" instead of "что это?" sometimes ;D

Nope, there's a more awful matter appears. For instance, I could say "Не уверен, если смогу дойти до кровати" instead of "Не уверен, смогу ли..."

It looks too ridiculous if I write it. But I really talk like that often...  :wall:
Ужасный чудными делами
Дзержинец мира искони
Он нашими решил судьбами
Себя прославить в эти дни

SS

Maybe when I'll learn some more languages, will speak like this too... But even now, when I try to speak English, Hungarian words sometimes come to my mind faster than English ones :)
Rég volt, együtt jártunk még,
Bennem marad a kép, ma is oly szép:
Arcod a szélben szinte száll,
Hallom nevetésed muzsikáját.
------------------------------------------------
Á É Í Ó Ú Ö Ü Ő Ű
á é í ó ú ö ü ő ű

Dark

Anyway, quoting one very famous person, "as many languages you speak, as many times you are a man."
Multilingualism is wonderful as soon as not necessarily you can speak another language, but if you can even understand what you are told in a language that isn't your mother tongue. This only advantage can leave all the drawbacks behind. Of course, we must strive to make the languages we speak as pure as possible, untouched by any influence from the outside. But it will surely come with time and experience.

Dark

Цитата: Jumis от августа 14, 2006, 17:21

Nope, there's a more awful matter appears. For instance, I could say "Не уверен, если смогу дойти до кровати" instead of "Не уверен, смогу ли..."

It looks too ridiculous if I write it. But I really talk like that often...  :wall:

My friend, if you ever come to Israel, you will shiver all over when you hear the language that Russian Israelis speak. A mixture of Russian with bad Hebrew interweaving with English and foul Arabic. Brrrrrrrr!

Jumis

мон шер ами, это просто возмутительно, иль финира трэ маль  :green:
Ужасный чудными делами
Дзержинец мира искони
Он нашими решил судьбами
Себя прославить в эти дни

SS

Вот, точно, а если ещё вспомнить, как в России разговаривали век-другой назад... :)
Rég volt, együtt jártunk még,
Bennem marad a kép, ma is oly szép:
Arcod a szélben szinte száll,
Hallom nevetésed muzsikáját.
------------------------------------------------
Á É Í Ó Ú Ö Ü Ő Ű
á é í ó ú ö ü ő ű

Jumis

Цитата: SS от августа 15, 2006, 10:20
Вот, точно, а если ещё вспомнить, как в России разговаривали век-другой назад... :)

-- Поручик, стойте-с! Что это у Вас?
-- Кипяток-с!..
-- На}{Yй-с!
-- Извольте-с!
-- Ааааааааааа! Тон маман, мерзавецццц, тон маман!..

:green:
Ужасный чудными делами
Дзержинец мира искони
Он нашими решил судьбами
Себя прославить в эти дни

György

I think multilingualism is definitely a virtue. You are more aware of language in general. Besides that it is much easier to learn further languages.

But mixing up languages sometimes can be a problem. When I came back to Germany after a year in Poland, I sometimes failed to find the correct word in German in some situations. I actually had a 0 in my brain, not Polish.

Now, since my wife is Polish and we are speaking in Polish to each other most of the time, I sometimes even have problems with German syntax. And there certain words or phrases in Polish for which I don't know a good German equivalent. May be often there is none.


Sprachen lernen ist wie Wasser in einen löchrigen Eimer zu gießen.
Learning languages is like pouring water into a bucket full of holes.
Uczyć sie języków jest jak wlewać wodę do dziurawego wiadra.
Apprendre de langues est comme verser de l'eau dans un seau troué.

Alaŭdo

Цитата: György от сентября 22, 2006, 22:14
I think multilingualism is definitely a virtue. You are more aware of language in general. Besides that it is much easier to learn further languages.
...
Now, since my wife is Polish and we are speaking in Polish to each other most of the time, I sometimes even have problems with German syntax. And there certain words or phrases in Polish for which I don't know a good German equivalent. May be often there is none.
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language, doesn't matter if it is German or Polish. It mostly depends upon your command, sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language, but it is mostly because you are not so skilled in interpreting. In your case I would say, that your (evidently) good command of Polish is combined with moderate interpreting skills and experience, so, it is difficult for you to reach the same expression level in German. That basically contradicts to your thesis, that "multilingualism is definitely a virtue". :)

Dana

Цитата: "Alaŭdo" от
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language
Don't forget about the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis  ;)
Homo homini cattulus est

Хто не знає про добро, той завжди буде злим,
Хто забув свою мову, той прокинеться німим,
Хто завжди був рабом, той залишиться ніким,
Все почалося з нічого і закінчиться нічим...

György

Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 23, 2006, 02:28
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language, doesn't matter if it is German or Polish. It mostly depends upon your command, sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language, but it is mostly because you are not so skilled in interpreting. In your case I would say, that your (evidently) good command of Polish is combined with moderate interpreting skills and experience, so, it is difficult for you to reach the same expression level in German. That basically contradicts to your thesis, that "multilingualism is definitely a virtue". :)

May be I should add that these problems with syntax occur most often when I talk to my wife.
We are living in Germany and when I am in a 100% German environment I do not have these problems at all. Vocabulary sometimes remains a problem, but I think even Monolinguists experience that from time to time.

Multilingualism is a virtue although there are some negative aspects, too. But compared to the advantages they are really neglectable.
Sprachen lernen ist wie Wasser in einen löchrigen Eimer zu gießen.
Learning languages is like pouring water into a bucket full of holes.
Uczyć sie języków jest jak wlewać wodę do dziurawego wiadra.
Apprendre de langues est comme verser de l'eau dans un seau troué.

György

Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 23, 2006, 02:28
[sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language

e.g.
diminutives, here Slavic languages are much richer than Germanic
some sentences are "translatable", but they appear ridiculous to me in German

We are raising our son bilingual and sometimes it is really difficult for me to say something in German "child language" what I've heard from my wife in Polish "child language" before.
Sprachen lernen ist wie Wasser in einen löchrigen Eimer zu gießen.
Learning languages is like pouring water into a bucket full of holes.
Uczyć sie języków jest jak wlewać wodę do dziurawego wiadra.
Apprendre de langues est comme verser de l'eau dans un seau troué.

Alaŭdo

Цитата: Dana от сентября 23, 2006, 06:46
Цитата: "Alaŭdo" от
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language
Don't forget about the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis  ;)
That's why I am so cautious writing about this. There are things you can not translate directly, but to my knowledge and according to my experience there are always ways to deliver the same idea using words and grammar immanent to the target language.

BTW: what about this hypothesis? did they manage to (dis)prove it? As far as I am informed the Longlan project almost failed...

ЦитироватьMay be I should add that these problems with syntax occur most often when I talk to my wife.
We are living in Germany and when I am in a 100% German environment I do not have these problems at all. Vocabulary sometimes remains a problem, but I think even Monolinguists experience that from time to time.
I doubt that monolingual German speakers (= bearers of German language) face these problems (though I may be wrong). Somehow I know no one monolingual person, at least in the vicinity. But I don't think they have much problems expressing themselves in their only language.

ЦитироватьMultilingualism is a virtue although there are some negative aspects, too. But compared to the advantages they are really neglectable.
It actually depends upon your environment. Living in Germany with perfect Turkish is much more useful, as with perfect Tatar :)

Alaŭdo

Цитата: György от сентября 23, 2006, 13:22
e.g.
diminutives, here Slavic languages are much richer than Germanic
some sentences are "translatable", but they appear ridiculous to me in German
Still, diminutives are common in German "child language", words like "Entchen", "Körbchen", "Füßchen", "Händchen", "Tischlein" etc are usual and used often, maybe not as often as in Russian. Here I do not see any big problems with translation.

ЦитироватьWe are raising our son bilingual and sometimes it is really difficult for me to say something in German "child language" what I've heard from my wife in Polish "child language" before.
Surely this is not so easy, but I would rather ascribe it to your (probably) worse command of German language, than to the penury of German "Kindersprache".

Читатель

Fortunately, I speak exactly three languages and therefore, disqualify as multilingual :-)

To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.

That's why it's better to limit your interest in languages to reading only.

Alaŭdo

Цитата: Читатель от сентября 23, 2006, 13:39
To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.
I speak (fluently or natively) exactly 5, so I can not qualify for "more than 5". Nonetheless I do not have the symptoms you're describing. Basically you have to "tune up" to the language. For the first half an hour it is problematic, then it gradually fades out. I need approximately 40 mins to switch to another language and about a week to get as fluent in it as I was before. This applies to my native languages too.

Andrej82

Цитата: Читатель от сентября 23, 2006, 13:39
Fortunately, I speak exactly three languages and therefore, disqualify as multilingual :-)

To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.

That's why it's better to limit your interest in languages to reading only.


Only with words or phrases borrowed or descending from the same source.  So speaking closely related languages, when you constantly have to juggle them, can be confusing.  Otherwise it doesn't take much effort to separate the apples from the oranges.

Andrej82

The trouble is when you attempt to lay out your thoughts in one language when the initial feeling or thought was in another.  The best thing to do is to tune yourself into a language depending on the people surrounding you.  Otherwise you won't do much better than one of those online translators :)

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