Лингвофорум

Слышал не один раз от тех людей которые были или жили в венгрии из предстаителей нашего народа что венгерский они ну на 50% понимают, по крайней мере общий смысл. Возможноли это. Я сам венгерский не знаю. Но думаю на форуме найдуться те кто знает. Или это может какой нибудь диалект венгеского с тюркским оттенком? Что скажете? Сам венгерский испытавал влияние тюрков?

ЦитироватьThe Turkic elements in the Hungarian language are so numerous, that in the 19 century persistent scientific discussion proceeded about the belonging of the Hungarian language either to Finno-Ugric, or to Turkic languages. Only relative recently supporters of its Finno-Ugric origin have got the best. The thing was complicated that loans of a Turkic origin in the Hungarian language are divided to some layers, and words of the most ancient layer reminded on sounding Mongolian. For example, Hung. ökör "bull" reminded more Mong. üker than common Turk. öküz "bull".  It has been found out much later that ancient Turkic loans in the Hungarian language have the Chuvash character. The conclusion of experts can be formulated with Z. Gombocz' words:
    "Old Turkic loans in Hungarian have such specific  sound form inherent only in them which forces to consider their source Chuvash, or more precisely, that branch early separated from Turkic family which successor is language of present Chuvashes and which can be named Old Chuvashian" (Gombocz Zoltán. 1985-1, 26).
    Even the fact, that in some cases the Hungarian words can find coincidence only in the Mongolian language, has not great importance as the Old Turkic vocabulary structure remains known in an insufficient measure. (Ib, 29). Z. Gombots wrote about scales of Turkic fund in the Hungarian the following:
    "From 225 indisputable loans or allowable comparisons 90 words of the Hungarian language have the Chuvash coincidence " (Ib, 40).
    Since the time of writing these lines (the thirtieth of the last century) the submitted above number has been essentially increased by efforts of researchers. Egorov believes that hundreds of Turkisms with strongly pronounced Bulgarsо-Chuvash attributes can be found in the Hungarian language (Egorov N.I., 1987, 24). His opinion can be confirmed also by Kornilov's researches. He has found the Chuvash coincidences to more than two hundred Hungarian words only with initial a, b and c letters (Kornilov G.E., 1973). However it is necessary to mean not only the general coincidence of the Hungarian and Chuvash words but also their external and internal similarity: 
    "Coinciding words to Hungarian borz, cötkény, gyom, irö, kecske, kucsiny, szücs are available also in other Turkic languages, but coinciding Hungarian derivative forms and shades of values can be found out only in the Chuvash language " (Gombocz Zoltán. 1985-1, 40).
    It is known that in the Chuvash language, Old Chuvash spirant g appears on the place of Old Turkic - k, -g. This sound drops out in the Hungarian loans: borz ← *borsug, kút ← kutug, however it stays not clear why final - k remains in the other ancient loans from Turkic: árok, hurok, köldök. (Pallo Margit K. 1985, 80). This fact can be explained by that last loans occur since those times when Turkic people still stayed in Eastern Europe and proto-Hungarians were their neighbours, and examples with dropping out of final - k occur from the more late time. They are obliged for their archaic shape that language of ancient Bulgars developed in some isolation from other Turkic languages and has kept in the certain measure features of Old Turkic language.
Considering the facts of language coincidence of the Hungarian and Chuvash languages, one can come to the conclusion that there will be hardly other pair languages of different language families in the world which would have such same similarity one with another as these two languages. The fact of such similarity can speak that the speakers of the Hungarian and Chuvash languages were in the very close contact between themselves during the long period, at least not one - two centuries. For a long time scholars already search for time and a place of such contacts and there is an opinion that they should occur in the south of Eastern Europe:
    "The geo-botanic data, which importance for the first time has paid attention Istvan Ziczi to, also force us to search for a place Hungarian-Bulgarian connections not in the area of the middle Volga region but more to the south. In this respect, a main role play terms of viniculture bor  "wine", szöllö "grapes", szürni "to strain, filter", seprö "a sediment, deposit (in wine)". The specific phonetic shape of last three words, characteristic only for the Chuvash language, does doubtless the fact that Hungarians have got acquainted with viniculture through Bulgars. And the northern border of winegrowing passes on the line: Mogilyov on the Dnestr – Ekaterinoslav (Dnepropetrovsk) on the Dnepr - Serepta on the Volga, that is to the south of 49-th degree of northern breadth" (Gombocz Zoltán. 1985-2, 46-47).
    These and other facts give the grounds to suppose that the place of Hungarian-Bulgarian contacts was the Northern Caucasus. Considering Bulgars as the most ancient Turkic people in Eastern Europe at the time of Chazarian Kaganat (kingdom), they judged that these contacts took place in VII-VIII centuries AD. However the study of the language processes during those far times force us to doubt about as to sufficiency of such limited period for the extremely deep Chuvash-Bulgarian influences on the Hungarian language. Knowing, that Turkis were present at Eastern Europe always from the times of the formation of single Turkic languages from Proto-Turkic, one cannot reject opportunities of the reference of time of these influences at an earlier and longer period.

ЦитироватьКабарите, които се деляли на три рода (племена), говорели език, различен от маджарския. През ІХ-Х век сред маджарите съществувало двуезичие - те говорели както своя език, така и хазарския (кабарския). Повечето учени са на мнение, че кабарите са тюрки в езиково отношение, макар че съществува и теза, че част от кабарите са предци на днешните кабардинци. Обикновено се смята, че кабарите произхождат от етническата общност на хазарите. Някои автори свързват кабарите с подчинените от хазарите прабългари и със секлерите[2].

http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кабари
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кавары

ЦитироватьLess well known and accepted is the alternative suggestion of Turkic origin of the language. Even though this notion appeared in the scientific literature as early as the first half of the 19th century, it has never gained wide acceptance. At that time the reason was partly political, since it was not politically correct to accept relationship with "less cultured, sometimes barbaric" people living in Central-Asia. Yet, several of the explorers, linguists and other scientists who tried to find the "ancient homeland" of Hungarians were heading to Central-Asia or at least realized that the most likely place to find it is indeed somewhere between the Altai-Tien Mountains and the Aral Lake where the forests meet the endless steppe. Even Kõrösi Csoma Sándor (Alexander de Kõrösi Csoma),the author of the first Tibetan-English dictionary suggested that one should look for relatives of Hungarians north of the Tibetan plateau. Ármin Vámbéry, another well-known Turkologist of the last century suggested that Hungarian is an "ugricized" Turkic language rather than a pure Ugric language. His ideas have not received publicity for long mainly for not scientific reasons.

Hungarian contains many words of clearly Turkic origin. A certain number may have been borrowed by Hungarians from different Turkic people (Cumans, Pechenegs, Oghuz tribes) when in contact while migrating westward on the steppes, as Lajos Ligeti, a great Turkologist-Orientalist pointed out, but the origin of the largest proportion of these words can not be explained by borrowing. These words probably originated much earlier from an ancient language (Oghur Turkic) that was spoken mostly in the western part of the steppes in the early middle ages. Today only the Chuvash people in Russia speak a language belonging to this group. These words also show a general affinity to the so called Eastern-Turkic languages (see the Altaic language families) spoken in certain parts of Central-Asia, such as Kirghiz, Kazakh, and Uyghur, the language of the largest minority of China living on both sides of the Tien-Shan. These similarities clearly indicate a possible Turkic relationship of Hungarian.

http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/language.html

http://www.acronet.net/~magyar/english/1997-3/JRNL97B.htm

http://www.kirj.ee/public/va_lu/l37-2-1.pdf

ЦитироватьSprachverwandschaft

Die etablierte Sprachwissenschaft ordnet das Ungarische zusammen mit dem Chantischen und dem Mansischen, den Sprachen zweier indigener Völker Westsibiriens mit jeweils wenigen tausend Sprechern, der ugrischen Untergruppe der finno-ugrischen Sprachen zu. Die finno-ugrischen Sprachen wiederum bilden zusammen mit der kleinen Gruppe der samojedischen Sprachen die uralische Sprachfamilie.

Alternative Theorien

Die Sonderstellung der magyarischen Sprache in Mitteleuropa regte seit dem 19. Jahrhundert die Erarbeitung zahlreicher anderer Herkunftstheorien an, die jedoch von der Mehrheit der Wissenschaftler als spekulativ und unbelegt angesehen werden.

    * Eine dieser Theorien ist die ungarisch-türkische (turanische) Theorie von Ármin Vámbéry, der im 19. Jahrhundert wirkte. Motiviert wurde die Herleitung einer Verwandtschaft mit den Turksprachen durch strukturelle Ähnlichkeiten (Agglutinierender Sprachbau, Vokalharmonie). Eine genetische Verwandtschaft des Ungarischen mit den Turksprachen gilt heute jedoch als widerlegt. Diese Auseinandersetzung wurde in der Fachwelt als der ,,Ugrisch-Türkische Krieg" bekannt.[5],[6]
    * Einige Autoren – meist Hobbyforscher im Exil – suchten nach einer Verbindung mit der sumerischen Sprache.
    * Weitere Linguisten haben Ähnlichkeiten zwischen den keltischen Sprachen und dem Ungarischen behauptet.
    * Ein italienischer Linguist, Mario Alinei, forscht nach etruskischen Wurzeln.
    * Eine in Ungarn populäre Hypothese führt den Ursprung der magyarischen Sprache auf die Sprache der Hunnen zurück. Hierzu wird angeführt, dass es zahlreiche Ähnlichkeiten in Kultur und Überlieferung gebe. Allerdings gibt es keine schriftlichen Zeugnisse dieser Sprache, und selbst für eine eindeutige Zuordnung zu einer Sprachfamilie existieren keine ausreichenden Sprachdenkmäler. Auf die gedachte Verbindung mit den Hunnen geht auch die in zahlreichen europäischen Sprachen übliche Schreibung des Landesnamens mit ,,H-" zurück, vgl. deutsch (veraltet) Hungarn, französisch Hongrie, englisch Hungary.
    * Die sog. nostratische Hypothese postuliert eine gemeinsame Ursprache, aus der die uralischen Sprachen, die indogermanischen Sprachen sowie die altaischen und semitischen Sprachen hervorgegangen sein sollen. Andere gehen von Wortgruppensystemen (szóbokor, szóbokrok, ,,Wort-Gewächsen") aus.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungarische_Sprache#Ursprung_und_Geschichte

ЦитироватьControversy over origins

Mainstream linguistics holds that Hungarian is part of the Uralic family of languages, related ultimately to languages such as Finnish and Nenets.

    * For many years (from 1869), it was a matter of dispute whether Hungarian was a Finno-Ugric/Uralic language, or was more closely related to the Turkic languages, a controversy known as the "Ugric-Turkish war". Hungarians did absorb some Turkic influences during several centuries of co-habitation. For example, it appears that the Hungarians learned animal breeding techniques from the Turkic Chuvash, as a high proportion of words specific to agriculture and livestock are of Chuvash origin. There was also a strong Chuvash influence in burial customs. Furthermore, all Ugric languages, not just Hungarian, have Turkic loanwords related to horse riding. Nonetheless, the science of linguistics shows that the basic wordstock and morphological patterns of the Hungarian language are solidly based on a Uralic heritage.
    * There have been historical attempts to link Hungarian with e.g. Etruscan, Turkic, and Sumerian. Such alternative theories are usually only advocated by non-specialists today. See Pseudoscientific language comparison.
    * Hungarian has often been claimed to be related to Hunnish, since Hungarian legends and histories show close ties between the two peoples (although the name Hunor, preserved in legends and still used as a given name in Hungary, can also show a link with Khanty). Some people believe that the Székelys, a Hungarian ethnic group living in Romania, are descended from the Huns. However, the link with Hunnish is uncertain, and it is not even known which languages the Huns spoke.

There have been attempts, dismissed by mainstream linguists, to show that Hungarian is related to other languages including Hebrew, Egyptian, Basque, Persian, Pelasgian, Greek, Chinese, Sanskrit, English, Tibetan, Magar, Quechua, Armenian and at least 42 other Asian, European and even American languages.[14]

Török jövevényszavak a magyar nyelvben

http://www.columbia.edu/~sss31/Turkiye/macarca.turkce.html
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/language.htm

>> http://mnyfi.elte.hu/finnugor/klima/ural12/mnyfgralsegedanyagok/Magytorokkapcs.htm

ЦитироватьTörök szókészleti csoportok ~ Forrás: LL: 237−320.

Lovasnomád életmód: gyeplő, balta

Törzsi rend, nomád társadalom: gyula, kündü, karcha, kapu, sereg, tábor, bilincs, törvény, tanú

Népnevek: besenyő, nándor, böszörmény, káliz, bular (belár)

Vallás, hiedelemvilág: báj, ige, igéz, boszorkány, ünnep, egyház, búcsú, gyónik

Állattartás: barom, ökör, bika, tinó, ünő, borjú, ürü, kos, kecske, disznó, ártány, tyúk, túró, író, köpű, ól, karám, vályú, komondor, kuvasz

Földművelés: arat, búza, árpa, őröl, ocsú, kölyű, eke, sarló, tarló, borsó, gyümölcs, alma, körte, som, dió, kökény, kender, csalán, tiló, csepű, orsó, szőlő, bor, seprő, csiger

Halászat: gyalom, vejsze, tok, süllő, gyertya ('éjszakai halászathoz használt fáklya')

Solymászás, madarászás: sólyom, keselyű, ölyv, turul, karvaly, tőr ('háló, hurok, csapda')

Mesterségek: ács, szűcs

Közlekedés: tengely, szál ('tutaj')

Kereskedés: bársony, gyöngy, bors, tár, szatócs

Természeti környezet: tenger, sár, szél

Állatvilág: oroszlán, bölény, gödény, túzok, ürge, borz, bögöly

Növényvilág: gyertyán, kőris, katáng, kóró, gyékény, gyom, bojtorján, kökörcsin, üröm

Család: gyermek, kölyök, iker

Test, testi tulajdonságok: térd, boka, gyomor, köldök, tar, csipa, szeplő

Lakás, eszközök: sátor, cserge, karó, szék, teknő, bölcső, koporsó

Ruházat: süveg, saru, ködmön, csat, tükör

Igék: gyűl, dől, szór, szűr, csavar, söpör, arat

+ http://szotar.sztaki.hu/english-hungarian

Не знаю,как тюркские народы,но наши мордвины-мордовки кое-что понимают по-венгерски.Оно и понятно,угорские..

Цитата: "Драгана" от
Не знаю,как тюркские народы,но наши мордвины-мордовки кое-что понимают по-венгерски.Оно и понятно,угорские..

Они не угорские!
Угорские языки — достаточно дальние родственники финно-пермских...

Цитата: "ali" от
Слышал не один раз от тех людей которые были или жили в венгрии из предстаителей нашего народа что венгерский они ну на 50% понимают, по крайней мере общий смысл.

Что-то я в это не верю...
До тех пор, пока я не ознакомилась с венгерской грамматикой, по-венгерски не понимала абсолютно ничего.

Цитата: Драгана от ноября 22, 2007, 06:34
Не знаю,как тюркские народы,но наши мордвины-мордовки кое-что понимают по-венгерски.Оно и понятно,угорские..

эрзяне и мокшане обижаются, когда на них говорят "мордвины"

как на кар-балк. луна?

Цитата: ali от ноября 22, 2007, 01:01
Слышал не один раз от тех людей которые были или жили в венгрии из предстаителей нашего народа что венгерский они ну на 50% понимают, по крайней мере общий смысл. Возможноли это. Я сам венгерский не знаю. Но думаю на форуме найдуться те кто знает. Или это может какой нибудь диалект венгеского с тюркским оттенком? Что скажете? Сам венгерский испытавал влияние тюрков?

То что испытал какое-то влияние тюркского - это очевидно. Хотя бы из истории венгров. Но вряд ли до такой степени, что бы его могли понимать тюрки.

Цитата: "Karakurt" от
как на кар-балк. луна?

ай

Цитата: Dana от ноября 22, 2007, 20:12

Цитата: "Karakurt" от
как на кар-балк. луна?

ай

вообщето ялчык. От какого корня?

луна ай. Ялчик - этот как будто кто то хотел сказать не луна полностю а луночка  - айчик. А причем тут луна? Это говорили люди далекие от лингвистики. Солдаты, просто посетители страны. У нас кстати луна и месяц одно и тоже.... хмм может было что то отдельно в обозначени....

сорри, я затупил, значит в другом языке

Ну я посмотрел нетак уж и далек хоть я читать не умею по венгерски и не знаю как это произноситься, но много явно тюркских сочетаний. допустим szo - sez...  - слово я сразу догнал что это за слово....

Karakurt  давайте напишите если можете пару слов на венгерском таких основных. Типа лес, дерево, мужчина, женщина, соль. Посмотрим совпадения. Мы там много чего нашли в сравнении с японским, я тогда чуть не офигел. Может и сечас накопаем. Вообще у нас говорят и слово марджа, типа эй марджа сделайка то-то. Как обращение.

Ну Лей Мин Ся уже много написал выше

ну там сразу на венгеском и непонятно дальше на каком с каким сравнивали. Ладно сам покапаюсь завтра слово за словом.

Али,что,szo понятно?Читается как со и значит слово.Не вижу тюркского.Даже больше славянского:szovak "сОвак"-слова.

Драгана, а откуда Z? почему не может быть Sez?

Это уж не знаю.

Цитата: Драгана от ноября 23, 2007, 07:12
Али,что,szo понятно?Читается как со и значит слово.Не вижу тюркского.Даже больше славянского:szovak "сОвак"-слова.

Это булгаризм.