Good evening, dear friends. I sincerely hope that Admin of this forum will agree to give his generous permission to dedicate this page to particular detalis of English, that are important for those who already have a good command of this language, but sometimes encounter specific peculiarities that raise difficulties.
Efficiency and
effectiveness. Which of these words corresponds to the Russian "
эффективность", and which - "
действенность"? Explanations to both are given below.
ЦитироватьEfficiency pertains to the relationship between resources and outcomes, while effectiveness refers to realization of goals.
I won't object if you remove this topic; I acknowledge that it a bit dissonates.
Excuse me for prolonged non-responding to the messages addressed to me in Bulgarian and Polish sections; but I'm currently infernally busy.
Thanx.
Цитата: ЛеонидGood evening, dear friends
2u2!
Цитата: ЛеонидAdmin of this forum will agree to give his generous permission to dedicate this page to particular detalis of English
Well, first of all, am I considered the one who decides what to talk about and gives permissions on some subjects and objects to the others? :roll: If so, I should revise my strategy, that's not whom I wanted to be... :?
Second, permission granted. :wink:
Цитата: ЛеонидI won't object if you remove this topic;
No way! Why should we...?
Цитата: ЛеонидI acknowledge that it a bit dissonates
Can you explain why you think so?
Цитата: ЛеонидEfficiency and effectiveness. Which of these words corresponds to the Russian "эффективность", and which - "действенность"? Explanations to both are given below.
I'm not sure I understand the difference between those two Russian words. It seems that you, Leonid, also don't, for if you see the explanation, in what the English words differ, you should be able to attach them to the corresponding Russian ones, if it is possible at all (I don't actually understand why you need it...), because, you see, I'm definitely against translating from one language to another, for I think we lose much of the meaning by doing that, it is enough to understand the English words, unless you plan to be a real-time translator :)
Neither do I see a clear difference in English. If someone has an idea, please share.
Цитата: ЛеонидEfficiency and effectiveness. Which of these words corresponds to the Russian "эффективность", and which - "действенность"? Explanations to both are given below.
ЦитироватьEfficiency pertains to the relationship between resources and outcomes, while effectiveness refers to realization of goals.
I read somewhere that "the war in Afghanistan was effective but not efficient".
Цитата: ЛеонидEfficiency and effectiveness. Which of these words corresponds to the Russian "эффективность", and which - "действенность"? Explanations to both are given below.
Evening!
Well, I think Webster is the only thing we need here... :)
Цитата: Webster
Efficiency
I. noun The ratio of useful work to energy expended.
II. noun The quality of being efficient or producing an effect or effects; efficient power; effectual agency.
Цитата: Webster
Effectiveness
noun The quality of being effective.
It's clear from here that Efficiency is rather measure: even second meaning refers to "quality of being producing". Thus "действенность" is Effectiveness and "эффективность" should be translated as Efficience.
Цитата: andrewsiakЦитата: ЛеонидEfficiency and effectiveness. Which of these words corresponds to the Russian "эффективность", and which - "действенность"? Explanations to both are given below.
ЦитироватьEfficiency pertains to the relationship between resources and outcomes, while effectiveness refers to realization of goals.
I read somewhere that "the war in Afghanistan was effective but not efficient".
Cool, this is really a good example, it makes everything transparent. Interesting, how should we actually translate this sentence?
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: AndrewsiakI read somewhere that "the war in Afghanistan was effective but not efficient".
Cool, this is really a good example, it makes everything transparent. Interesting, how should we actually translate this sentence?
Maybe "война в Афганистане была результативной, но не эффективной". It's just an idea, nothing more... :)
BTW, will you give to Lovermann permissions to write here in Esperanto? ;)
Цитата: DigammaBTW, will you give to Lovermann permissions to write here in Esperanto?
Honestly, just yesterday I thought to open two new threads here - English and Esperanto. Is there some new device for reading thoughts via internet? 8)
P.S. I'll be glad to hear corrections, if someone sees mistakes in my posts, and if someone wants to be corrected too, state that please :)
Цитата: rawonamIs there some new device for reading thoughts via internet? 8)
Yep. A head. It's completely new device for me. ;)
FYI, I mean not to open new topic for Lovermann, but to allow him to post here in Esperanto - I can rememeber his mood about English. :) (joke!)
Цитата: DigammaFYI,
What's this abbreviation?
Цитата: DigammaI mean not to open new topic for Lovermann, but to allow him to post here in Esperanto - I can rememeber his mood about English. (joke!)
Yes, over my dead body. :P
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaFYI,
What's this abbreviation?
For Your Information.
Another abbreviation used quite often is ASAP (As Soon As Possible).
And IMHO too. :)
Цитата: DigammaAnother abbreviation used quite often is ASAP (As Soon As Possible).
Yeah, this one I know. I was taught it in highschool, because it is formal, as opposed to the other ones, which are used often, but informally. I like most AFAIK and IMHO, among those.
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaAnother abbreviation used quite often is ASAP (As Soon As Possible).
Yeah, this one I know. I was taught it in highschool, because it is formal, as opposed to the other ones, which are used often, but informally. I like most AFAIK and IMHO, among those.
FYI, AFAIK ASAP is MRU (IMHO). ;) ;) ;)
NB! MRU = most-recently used
I thought I knew English in all of its forms very well, by the same token I have never encountered an abbreviation I would not understand. Till today... Can anyone shed some light into my dark head and explain what a heck "AFAIK" means?
BTW, I have some really often used to quote: BYOB. Does anyone know what it stands for? :lol:
Цитата: RomanCan anyone shed some light into my dark head and explain what a heck "AFAIK" means?
BTW, I have some really often used to quote: BYOB. Does anyone know what it stands for? :lol:
AFAIK means "as far as I know".
AFAIK ;), BYOB is YABA meaning "bring your own booze/bottle/beer" (depending on taste :)).
BTW, YABA = "yet another bloody acronim". ;)
AFAIK (:)) it stands for Bring Your Own Bottle - accompanying postscript to invitation cards. Kinda
У нас с собой было.
FYI: If you are interested in acronyms, there are two sites 4U:
http://www.acronymfinder.com
and http://sokr.ru.
Цитата: rawonamYeah, this one I know. I was taught it in highschool, because it is formal, as opposed to the other ones, which are used often, but informally.
In addition to ASAP, acronyms like FYI are RSVP quite formal as well.
Pardon, I hadn't seen F's post when I typed mine.
OK. Now I know why there is no-one in the Polish section :)
I'd like to join you sometimes in here as well.
Good luck, folks !
Цитата: LidaOK. Now I know why there is no-one in the Polish section
Why? :) I think the Polish thread is dead since Tvid ceased to frequent this forum. :lol:
Цитата: LidaI'd like to join you sometimes in here as well.
Welcome! :)
Цитата: LidaGood luck, folks !
Thanks!
Цитата: rawonamI think the Polish thread is dead since Tvid ceased to frequent this forum. :lol:
No, you are absolutely wrong. I'd participate in the Polish forum with great pleasure, if I had time. But due to lack of time everything I can afford now is only to read what others write, as a brief rest, but not to engage into conversations. But I'll be back to Polish and other topics later.
Цитата: ЛеонидNo, you are absolutely wrong. I'd participate in the Polish forum with great pleasure, if I had time.
I can't be wrong here, I just stated a fact :) I hope you'll help to revive that thread.
Hello there!
I'am seeking your oppinion on the following:
e.x.: Hopefully your English is not THAT bad as your Russian (no strings attached :-))
I think THAT is correctly used here, to emphasize the meaning so to say. Though I don't know any rule as such to prove it. What do you think? Thanx in advance.
I am=I' am :-)
Цитата: VeroniqueHello there!
I'am seeking your oppinion on the following:
e.x.: Hopefully your English is not THAT bad as your Russian (no strings attached :-))
I think THAT is correctly used here, to emphasize the meaning so to say. Though I don't know any rule as such to prove it. What do you think? Thanx in advance.
I think Veronique knows at least one programming language. ;)
Hello!! how are you? May I join to you? ... Let's discuss any themes in English!!!...I think that we can find interesting themes , and we discuss it about everything.... I want to tell you ,that In the last year, i lived one year in America in the city "Chicago" I like this city I had seen for many interesting things,I had impression from this city And also I worked in the Chicago and I have earned a lot of money.... I Adore this city, it`s a little story about me good See you later!!
Hello!
Dimma should I be flattered by your response? :-)
What about the question I've asked?
Nando, if you are so fond of Chicago, what made you leave it?
Oh my, a topic about English! Cool beans! By the way, what do you think about the Old English? Personally, I'm really fond of it, though the majority of my fellow students really do detest it. We analize one & the same text from king Alfred's Bible, saying, 'Ohthere saede his hlaforde, AElfrede cyninge thaet he ealra nordhmonna northmest bude, etc.'
Sorry for the lack of diacrytics in my Old English. I'm writing the message in an Internet Cafe and don't have a moment for writing with a Unicode or at leasttyping in the MS Word (curse those programmers that made an interface of the computer I am working at!! :( )
Nord: Sorry, don't have any views on the matter (the old English). I do enjoy reading but mostly contemporary stuff.
Цитата: NandoI want to tell you ,that In the last year, i lived one year in America in the city "Chicago" I like this city I had seen for many interesting things,I had impression from this city And also I worked in the Chicago and I have earned a lot of money
I am wondering if we should correct mistakes wherever they are...
Цитата: Veronique
Nando, if you are so fond of Chicago, what made you leave it?
hello! yeah!! it`s a good question!! why did i leave it? because, (one reason) I did not
have a citizenship... (second reason)I could not to stay there for a long time... And
besides,(Third reason) the visa has ended.
And I visited my uncle... it was a little trip,, I didn`t mean to leave there forever..
Цитата: VeroniqueDimma should I be flattered by your response? :-)
Nope. I just noted your usage of "strings"... :)
Цитата: andrewsiakI am wondering if we should correct mistakes wherever they are...
I'm not into correcting anyone, unless he/she asks for it. Might make mistakes myself sometimes. :-)
Цитата: DigammaNope. I just noted your usage of "strings"...
I admit, I've used "string-expression" in a wrong way. What I actually meant was: "I don't mean anyone in particular". After all English is not my mother tongue.
Qui s'excuse, s'accuse. :-)
Цитата: VeroniqueЦитата: DigammaNope. I just noted your usage of "strings"...
I admit, I've used "string-expression" in a wrong way.
Well, actually I was quite surprised by your "no strings attached" because it has exactly programmer's meaning of the word "string" - single line of text. I'd rather use "no text attached".
P.S. I'll be thankful to anyone for comments about possible mistakes or misuses in my English (I know it's not prefect :)).
Цитата: VeroniqueHopefully your English is not THAT bad as your Russian (no strings attached )
I think THAT is correctly used here, to emphasize the meaning so to say. Though I don't know any rule as such to prove it. What do you think? Thanx in advance.
It's kinda weird looking for proofs of "correctness". I don't actually understand what you need. Dictionary is a proof, isn't it? :) Though search engine results are much more important, in my opinion.
Цитата: andrewsiakI am wondering if we should correct mistakes wherever they are...
I think we should. One learns from his own mistakes.
Цитата: DigammaWell, actually I was quite surprised by your "no strings attached" because it has exactly programmer's meaning of the word "string" - single line of text. I'd rather use "no text attached".
That's funny. It has just dawned upon me what you've meant by your comment (even before I've read your last message). Actually I don't know any programming languages. Once I'd joined Java courses, but after a while realised that it was not "my cup of tea". So, it took some time, before the meaning of your message kicked in. ha-ha :-)
Цитата: rawonamIt's kinda weird looking for proofs of "correctness". I don't actually understand what you need. Dictionary is a proof, isn't it? Though search engine results are much more important, in my opinion.
The thing is that someone (who apparently speaks English quite well, but not a native) pointed it out to me, saying that one should not use THAT, but AS e.x.: Hopefully your English is not THAT (AS) bad as your Russian. Though I am pretty sure, that both variants are correct. I've cosulted a dictionary as well, but its explanation is rather ambiguous. That's the point of raising this issue here.
Hello, folks. What are you arguing about? :) This world is beautiful. So let us not make it tenser.
Veronique, I may suppose that your the expression with THAT means "НАСТОЛЬКО" and may be used without any comparison. But I may be mistaken.
Much appreciated, Aramis. I just wanted to know a second oppinion.
Цитата: VeroniqueЦитата: rawonamIt's kinda weird looking for proofs of "correctness". I don't actually understand what you need. Dictionary is a proof, isn't it? Though search engine results are much more important, in my opinion.
The thing is that someone (who apparently speaks English quite well, but not a native) pointed it out to me, saying that one should not use THAT, but AS e.x.: Hopefully your English is not THAT (AS) bad as your Russian. Though I am pretty sure, that both variants are correct. I've cosulted a dictionary as well, but its explanation is rather ambiguous. That's the point of raising this issue here.
Ah... this you mean... well, this construction sounds to me well, but I'm really not the one to judge, maybe I'll ask a native.
Цитата: AramisHello, folks. What are you arguing about? This world is beautiful. So let us not make it tenser.
It's just a discussion, does it seem like a heated debate? :)
Цитата: AramisI may suppose that your the expression with THAT means "НАСТОЛЬКО" and may be used without any comparison. But I may be mistaken.
I think you are absolutely right, I don't understand why you are not sure about this.
PS. Veronica, do you mind if I tell you that "opinion" should be written with one P? You wrote it incorrectly twice 8)
Цитата: rawonamIt's just a discussion, does it seem like a heated debate?
Well... It seemed like this :) I hope that our discussion is turning now into a more friendly manner :_3_19
Цитата: rawonamPS. Veronica, do you mind if I tell you that "opinion" should be written with one P? You wrote it incorrectly twice
Yes, you are right. That's why I don't want to correct anyone, even if a mistake catches my eye. People might fling it back at me, saying that I am hardly a paragon of literacy myself. :-)
Цитата: AnonymousЦитата: rawonamPS. Veronica, do you mind if I tell you that "opinion" should be written with one P? You wrote it incorrectly twice
Yes, you are right. That's why I don't want to correct anyone, even if a mistake catches my eye. People might fling it back at me, saying that I am hardly a paragon of literacy myself. :-)
I think it should be bidirectional. I corrected your mistake, so when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life. We both gain that way.
If we don't correct each other, we are losing the opportunity to improve our knowledge.
Цитата: rawonamIf we don't correct each other, we are losing the opportunity to improve our knowledge.
Say no more. You are absolutely right. :-)
Цитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
Цитата: ФизикЦитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
No, sorry, it's for private use ;) But really, my own mistakes I remember for a long time, I think I can make a list of all the mistakes I made on exams since highschool :)
Цитата: ФизикЦитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
;) Write it down and always hold the notebook in a pocket. ;)
Цитата: DigammaЦитата: ФизикЦитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
;) Write it down and always hold the notebook in a pocket. ;)
Better two. Just in case you lose one ;)
Once I read a book, its title was a kind of
"Притворись крутым философом". The author (by the way, he is the world-famous philosophy historian) wrote,
ЦитироватьThe buzzword meta-X means merely something describing X. My friend's memory was like a sieve, so he had a notebook. And as he used to forget where his notebook was placed, so he always carried a metanotebook - just a piece of paper, where he wrote down the notebook's depository.
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaЦитата: ФизикЦитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
;) Write it down and always hold the notebook in a pocket. ;)
Better two. Just in case you lose one ;)
And laptop: just to ensure you'll be able to reproduce both hard copies. ;)
You know, the best way of forgetting smth. is writing down on a sheet of paper that you have to memorize that thing. :) I don't remember who wrote it, but that witticism suits this discussion fine.
I don't realize why the discussions have ceased. Has everyone acquired Lovermann's famous contempt of everything connected with the sweet English tongue?Why not share some awesome texts in English, e.g. Eiléan Ní Chuilleanáin's (as you can see, she's originally an Irish speaker) poetry?
Studying the Language:
ЦитироватьOn Sundays I watch the hermits coming out of their holes
Into the light. The cliff is as full as a hive.
They crowd together on warm shoulders full of rock
Where the sun has been shining, their joints crackle.
They begin to talk after a while.
I listen to their accents, they are not all
From this island, not all old,
Not even, I think, all masculine.
They are so wise, they do not pretend to see me.
They drink from the scattered pools of melted snow:
I walk right by them and drink when they have done.
I can see the marks of chains around their feet.
I call this my work, these decades and stations —
Because, without these, I would be a stranger here.
Цитата: NordI don't realize why the discussions have ceased. Has everyone acquired Lovermann's famous contempt of everything connected with the sweet English tongue?Why not share some awesome texts in English, e.g. Eiléan Ní Chuilleanáin's (as you can see, she's originally an Irish speaker) poetry? ... ...
u better share your own poetries, it will be much much more exciting.
Цитата: andrewsiakNord пишет:
I don't realize why the discussions have ceased. Has everyone acquired Lovermann's famous contempt of everything connected with the sweet English tongue?Why not share some awesome texts in English, e.g. Eiléan Ní Chuilleanáin's (as you can see, she's originally an Irish speaker) poetry? ... ...
u better share your own poetries, it will be much much more exciting.
Sure I'd love to, but what about the copyright case. :) In the web, the boundaries between identities are too obscure. What if someone borrows 'em 'n treats 'em like his creation? :)
oh, pleeeeez
who'll ever want to appropriate your rhymes? :shock:
OK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
Цитата: NordOK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
We got the hint :lol: I actually have nothing against famous poets' writings, it is probably more interesting than poems of an amateur, isn't it, andrewsiak?
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: NordOK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
We got the hint :lol: I actually have nothing against famous poets' writings, it is probably more interesting than poems of an amateur, aren't they, andrewsiak?
yeah, but you can find famous poets everywhere, unlike 'amateur's' (as you put it) poetries. By the way, at what point, according to your logic, an 'amateur' poet becomes a 'professional' one? :?
Цитата: andrewsiakЦитата: rawonamЦитата: NordOK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
We got the hint :lol: I actually have nothing against famous poets' writings, it is probably more interesting than poems of an amateur, aren't they, andrewsiak?
yeah, but you can find famous poets everywhere, unlike 'amateur's' (as you put it) poetries. By the way, at what point, according to your logic, an 'amateur' poet becomes a 'professional' one? :?
Have I said "professional"? I said "famous". I think there is a clear difference :)
I don't really understand much about poetry, so I leave the judging to someone else. 8)
Цитата: NordOK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
Nord, is "It'll" your own form, or did you see it somewhere else? (just curious)
Цитата: DigammaЦитата: NordOK, OK, I'll only need some time to search for them on my hard disc. It'll definitely take some time...
Nord, is "It'll" your own form, or did you see it somewhere else? (just curious)
Digamma, this is a quite widespread form, I'm sure you have met it too.
Statistics:
1.
it's : 132,000,000 times
2.
it'll : 3,730,000
3.
'twas : 459,000
The last one is really an old-fashioned one.
Цитата: rawonamDigamma, this is a quite widespread form, I'm sure you have met it too.
Well, I see now. But not, somehow I hadn't met it before. Now I looked at Google's stats and was really surprised how it missed me until now. :)
All right, ladies and gentlemen (a dhaoine uasle)! Here is a poem of mine (inspired by Walter Miller, Fallout 1&2, Vonnegut, Chesterton, Chauser and some kind of hopelessness I cannot explain now).
Pavel Dronov aka Nord (c) 2002
The Address to the Hero
Hey you, the one whos seeks his fortune in the Grail,
Why do you think that here you'll prevail?
The glory you possessed before embarkin'
Will later shift to hatred and get darkened,
And those who've known thee since thy tender age,
Won't wish to see thee, getting quite enraged...
Who knows what'll be the reason of thy death?
Who sees whose sword will soner stop thy breath?
But when thou find'st in ruins your life, your home and shrine,
Who knows, what if that bloodied blade is thine?[/size]
It's too good to be a non-native speaker's one ;)
Цитата: andrewsiakIt's too good to be a non-native speaker's one ;)
You can ask Google if Nord is fair. :) (I'm sure he is!)
Цитата: NordHey
What does it mean in English? By the way, this is just like in Norwegian: Hei = Hallo :D
Цитата: ЕвгенийЦитата: NordHey
What does it mean in English?
Just kinda Russian "эй". E.g. "Hey, man, come on!"
Tnx :)
Concerning 'hey you' in the beginning, it was probably influenced by Pink Floyd. Remember that? "Hey you, up there on the road//Getting lonely, getting old,//Can you hear me?//Hey you, standing in the aisles,//Can yoou see the fading smiles,//Can you hear me?". As for this poem, I have written it myself. At that moment I was sure that the mankind's doomed either to be drowned in blood or to to degenerate. That's why I wrote this one and a couple of others. I will try to find more of 'em, though. Some of 'em are too much based upon the Fallout Game, the others use Pink Floyd's songs as epigraphs, but the one I really like is "The Address to the Hero". Probably that is why I have not forgotten it nearly two years after having written that poem.
8)
I agree with Andrewsiak here. Quite an amazing poem for a non-native speaker of english! I assume you have a degree in english literature, have you?
Цитата: ?эл?нI agree with Andrewsiak here. Quite an amazing poem for a non-native speaker of english! I assume you have a degree in english literature, have you?
I think the correct tag-question should be "haven't you", shouldn't it?
Цитата: AramisЦитата: ?эл?нI agree with Andrewsiak here. Quite an amazing poem for a non-native speaker of english! I assume you have a degree in english literature, have you?
I think the correct tag-question should be "haven't you", shouldn't it?
No, the correct tag-question here must be "don't you?". And, by the way, names of languages are always written capitalized.
Well, in a way I have a degree. I studied English literature at school and at the university, and my field of study is Romano-Germanic philology with all of its aspects. Besides, I simply enjoy reading Chauser (although it's quite attritional to look up a new word in a textbook on the history of English just to know how to pronounce it), Chesterton and Yeats.
Я плакал. :)
ЦитироватьGeorge Bush has two sides of brains - a left one and a right one. In the left one there is nothing right. And in the right one there is nothing left.
Цитата: DigammaЯ плакал. :)
ЦитироватьGeorge Bush has two sides of brains - a left one and a right one. In the left one there is nothing right. And in the right one there is nothing left.
:_3_01 :_3_01 :_3_01
Really cool joke :_1_12
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: AramisЦитата: ?эл?нI agree with Andrewsiak here. Quite an amazing poem for a non-native speaker of english! I assume you have a degree in english literature, have you?
I think the correct tag-question should be "haven't you", shouldn't it?
No, the correct tag-question here must be "don't you?". And, by the way, names of languages are always written capitalized.
Must be?
Mr. Rawonam, I think that you are quite нетерпимый here, aren't you?
As for the matter of a tag question here, I would like to say that, IMHO, usually tag questions use the same verb as in the main clause.
About writing language names in capital letters, you are most certainly right. Just some time ago I spilled some coffee on my keyboard and certain keys have now a tendency to get stuck or to be very dull. I think when I was typing my previous message, my keyboard was in 'dull' mood.
BTW, Is my usage of the russian word correct?
Цитата: ?эл?нMr. Rawonam, I think that you are quite нетерпимый here, aren't you?
As for the matter of a tag question here, I would like to say that, IMHO, usually tag questions use the same verb as in the main clause.
A tag question is a regular question with an auxiliary verb and a pronoun as a subject, while rest of the sentence is omited. The presence of negation is usually in the opposite state of the statement.
I doubt you can call the first sentence "main clause", because the tag question is not part of it, they're both on the same level in the hierarchy.
You have been sick, haven't you
(been sick)?
You have a book, don't you
(have a book)?
You don't smoke too much, do you
(smoke too much)?
And you can never use a content verb to create tagging:
*She doesn't eat, eats she?
This one sounds bad, doesn't it? :)
Цитата: ?эл?нBTW, Is my usage of the russian word correct?
Yes, quite correct :) What's your mother tongue?
A choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Спасибо Андрьюсяк
Это именно то, что я имел в виду.
Thanl you Andrewsiak!
That's exactly what I meant.
To Rawonam.
My mother tongue is Japanese.
Цитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.
Цитата: ?эл?нTo Rawonam.
My mother tongue is Japanese.
Cool :) How have you found this forum?
Цитата: NordWell, in a way I have a degree. I studied English literature at school and at the university, and my field of study is Romano-Germanic philology with all of its aspects. Besides, I simply enjoy reading Chauser (although it's quite attritional to look up a new word in a textbook on the history of English just to know how to pronounce it), Chesterton and Yeats.
Oh, really? I like Chaucer too, as well as the other English medieval texts.
Sometimes, its hard to keep the pronunciation clear medieval. I should controll myself to pronouce some words the way they really was pronounced in the time of Chaucer.
I studied Middle English and Early Modern English (Elisabethian) a little, just for interest.
Dear Nord, dont u have an electronic version of the "Romant of the Rose"? I cant find it :(
BTW, my favorite English poet is William Blake.
Meliketh all of his works.
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.
Exactly. Did you not know? It is actually the only acceptable form in Queen's English.
Sorry for a change of a nickname. I just got registered.
To Rawonam
Well, saying that my mother tongue was japanese is not exactly correct. I have 3 mother tongues to that extent, japanese, english and mongolian. My parents are mongolians who lived in japan and new zealand for a better part of their (and my) lives. That's why my knowledge of mongolian leaves a lot to wish. Also I am very much interested in russian. I studied it for a long time, and still I don't feel that I have mastered this language.
As for the tag-question, when you said those things, I just felt that 'have you' was the correct one, although with the other one, with 'don't you' I couldn't find anything wrong.
Цитата: andrewsiakЦитата: rawonamЦитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.
Exactly. Did you not know? It is actually the only acceptable form in Queen's English.
No, I didn't :oops: It sounds kinda funny to me, maybe because I always hear only American, our teachers laught at British accent and the way they talk, so my knowledge of English does not include extremely British expressions. Now I see why they don't like it :)
Saying "Have you a book?" is not consistent with English grammar - the rules of creating a question, I definitely won't use it :_1_22 :_1_12
Цитата: Crimson PigTo Rawonam
Well, saying that my mother tongue was japanese is not exactly correct. I have 3 mother tongues to that extent, japanese, english and mongolian. My parents are mongolians who lived in japan and new zealand for a better part of their (and my) lives. That's why my knowledge of mongolian leaves a lot to wish. Also I am very much interested in russian. I studied it for a long time, and still I don't feel that I have mastered this language.
Good, so you are welcome to master it here. People, including me, will be glad to help you with it. But please... capitalizing is very important in English, especially "japand and new zealend" looks very bad...
Цитата: Crimson Pign Pig"]As for the tag-question, when you said those things, I just felt that 'have you' was the correct one, although with the other one, with 'don't you' I couldn't find anything wrong.
Good, it's always good to know smth new. And I'm sorry for my "must be" :) It's just the way I talk, when I'm sure about smth. :wink:
To Katarina Magna: unfortunately, I haven't got it, but I can offer you "Sir Gawayne and the Greene Knyhte" instead :). As for Blake, I can understand your choice.
Tyger, tyger, burning bright
In the forest of the night!
What immortal glare or eye
Has made thy fearful symmetry.
And what can you say 'bout Yeats & Chesterton?
* * *
As for the tag questions, in Irish English, for instance, it is common to omit the initial 'yes' or 'know' and use only 'isn't it' in all the cases, e.g. "He never liked Sassenachs /Englishmen, from Irish Sasanach, Sasanachaí 'Saxon, Englishman'/, isn't it?" - "It is." or (although it's a general question, it bends this rule too) "He sez you were near that castle. Did you get inside?" - "I did".
Цитата: rawonamNo, I didn't :oops: It sounds kinda funny to me, maybe because I always hear only American, our teachers laught at British accent and the way they talk, so my knowledge of English does not include extremely British expressions. Now I see why they don't like it :)
Saying "Have you a book?" is not consistent with English grammar - the rules of creating a question, I definitely won't use it
1. Well, I think that the Brits don't really care if the Americans laugh at them, as it is actually the other way around: Brits laughing at American rednecks. I am actually surprised that 'your teachers' laughed at the British accent as the Americans normally perceive it as a "more cultural and intelligent" accent than their own. You can even see it in their movies: all nice and well-educated gentlemen speak British vs. American cowboys uttering their cowboyish sounds :P
2. 'Have you a book' is very much consistent with the English grammar since the 'have' verb has the same status as the 'be' verb. You don't say 'Do you be there?', do you?
Rawonam, your favourite method returned:
Google: "have you" -been: 6,430,000 records
Цитата: andrewsiak2. 'Have you a book' is very much consistent with the English grammar since the 'have' verb has the same status as the 'be' verb. You don't say 'Do you be there?', do you?
I'm quite surprised that I have to explain this to you: there are two "have"s in English, the auxilary ("You have eaten my plumcake.") and the simple content verb ("You have a book."). The following sentence contains both of them: "I have had a book."
The rule for creating a question is to raise or add an auxilary. Thus, it is obvious that if "have" is a content verb, the question should be created using an auxilary.
(OK-OK, I know logic doesn't work for languages, so I'm trying to kinda find excuses for my habits :D)
Цитата: DigammaRawonam, your favourite method returned:
Google: "have you" -been: 6,430,000 records
Look above. "have" can be an auxilary, we don't talk about it. It could be "have you seen" "have you slept" etc. It could also be "They
have you".
Now look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000
I guess you got it 8)
Цитата: rawonamNow look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000
I guess you got it 8)
Thats not as relevant as you think! Look, in most of these cases "have you" will be a tag question at the end of sentence. Damn, Google has no way to find "have you?" (and most of search engines too), but note that even Rambler found 1027 pages with "have you?" (most of them are kinda those we're talking about).
Цитата: DigammaЦитата: rawonamNow look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000
I guess you got it 8)
Thats not as relevant as you think! Look, in most of these cases "have you" will be a tag question at the end of sentence. Damn, Google has no way to find "have you?" (and most of search engines too), but note that even Rambler found 1027 pages with "have you?" (most of them are kinda those we're talking about).
I don't get, what is not as relevant as I think?
First, this is not only about tag questioning, this is about sentences like "Have you a book?". Second, "have you?" can be smth like "You haven't seen him, have you?", which is normal (read: not British-specific) use. :)
The phrases that I gave reveal information about sentences we are discussing.
Цитата: rawonamI don't get, what is not as relevant as I think?
You explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you? ;)
P.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Цитата: rawonamThe rule for creating a question is to raise or add an auxilary. Thus, it is obvious that if "have" is a content verb, the question should be created using an auxilary.
(OK-OK, I know logic doesn't work for languages, so I'm trying to kinda find excuses for my habits :D)
Your statement doesn't apply though to the verb 'to be', which can also be 'a content verb' and an auxiliary one. Once again, you say: 'Were you there?' (content) and 'Were you standing there?' (auxiliary) just as 'Have you a book?' (content) and 'Have you been there' (aux.).
My point is, 'to be' and 'to have' are special verbs that do not exactly follow the general syntax rules for verbs. When saying 'Do you have a book?' an American merely simplifies the existing pattern, equalizing the verb 'to have' with th rest of the verb pool (why doesn't he do with to the verb 'to be' is a good question), whilst a British preserves a more classical rule when saying 'Have you a book?'.
Цитата: Nordunfortunately, I haven't got it, but I can offer you "Sir Gawayne and the Greene Knyhte" instead
Oh, thanx, I would read it with great pleasure :)
But nevertheless I want to read "The Romant of the Rose".
Did you read Milton's "Paradise Lost"? Thats cool.
Also I like the poetry of Aleister Crowley (what do you think 'bout his poetry?).
My favorite poem of Crowley is "The Wizard Way:
Цитировать
VELVET soft the night-star glowed
Over the untrodden road,
Through the giant glades of yew
Where its ray fell light as dew
Lighting up the shimmering veil
Maiden pure and aery frail
That the spiders wove to hide
Blushes of the sylvan bride
Earth, that trembled with delight
At the male caress of Night.
.............
He had plucked the hazel rod
From the rude and goatish god,
Even as the curved moon's waning ray
Stolen from the King of Day.
He had learnt the elvish sign;
Given the Token of the Nine:
Once to rave, and once to revel,
Once to bow before the devil,
Once to swing the thurible,
Once to kiss the goat of hell,
Once to dance the aspen spring,
Once to croak, and once to sing,
Once to oil the savoury thighs
Of the witch with sea-green eyes
With the unguents magical.
Can you understand perfectly the first fragment without dictionary? I was unable to do it for the first time :(
As for Blake. That one you cited is one of my beloved verses of Blake. Also i like "The poison tree"
Цитата: Nord
And what can you say 'bout Yeats & Chesterton?
I like Yeats, beatifull poetry. Unfortunately, I never didnt read Chesterton, so cant say nothing about... :(
Цитата: DigammaYou explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you?
Yes, because there is no crucial difference between a tag question and a regular question and I can't think of a string to search at Google, which would give me all the appereances of "have you?" tagging a question about "having".
Цитата: andrewsiakYour statement doesn't apply though to the verb 'to be', which can also be 'a content verb' and an auxiliary one. Once again, you say: 'Were you there?' (content) and 'Were you standing there?' (auxiliary) just as 'Have you a book?' (content) and 'Have you been there' (aux.).
My point is, 'to be' and 'to have' are special verbs that do not exactly follow the general syntax rules for verbs. When saying 'Do you have a book?' an American merely simplifies the existing pattern, equalizing the verb 'to have' with th rest of the verb pool (why doesn't he do with to the verb 'to be' is a good question)
So, according to your train of thought, "do" also belongs here. So it should be: "Do you see?" (aux.) and *"Do you homework?" (content, instead of "Do you do homework?").
Цитата: andrewsiakwhilst a British preserves a more classical rule when saying 'Have you a book?'.
I think, the process was exactly the opposite, the original rule of forming a question was "Do you have...?" and the American preserved it, while British had their own development, influenced by the auxilary "have".
And "to be" is usually an exception in most languages, because of it's high frequency.
Цитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".
Цитата: Katarina MagnaI like Yeats, beatifull poetry. Unfortunately, I never didnt read Chesterton, so cant say nothing about...
Excuse me but that construction is impossible. You can choose either 'I never read Ch...' (better 'I've never read') or 'I didn't ever read' (but even that sounds strange)... Good luck!
Цитата: AramisYou can choose either 'I never read Ch...' (better 'I've never read') or 'I didn't ever read' (but even that sounds strange)... Good luck!
The second one sounds strange, because it is very colloquial (meaning incorrect). The standard form is "I haven't ever read". (With 'ever' and 'never' one must use Present Perfect.)
By the way, I think in spoken language of low classes what Katarina said is grammatical.
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaYou explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you?
Yes, because there is no crucial difference between a tag question and a regular question and I can't think of a string to search at Google, which would give me all the appereances of "have you?" tagging a question about "having".
That's why I shifted away from Google to demonstrate it. (Is "shift away" correct here?)
Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".
Not so obvious for me. It can be a case when most of dialects lose norm (compare with Russian "ложить") - that's why I say you have to check it carefully.
Katarina Magna, here is a poem by Chesterton for yoo to have a look at.
A Ballade of Suicide
The gallows in my garden, people say,
Is new and neat and adequately tall;
I tie the noose on in a knowing way
As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
But just as all the neighbours--on the wall--
Are drawing a long breath to shout "Hurray!"
The strangest whim has seized me. . . . After all
I think I will not hang myself to-day.
To-morrow is the time I get my pay--
My uncle's sword is hanging in the hall--
I see a little cloud all pink and grey--
Perhaps the rector's mother will not call--
I fancy that I heard from Mr. Gall
That mushrooms could be cooked another way--
I never read the works of Juvenal--
I think I will not hang myself to-day.
The world will have another washing-day;
The decadents decay; the pedants pall;
And H.G. Wells has found that children play,
And Bernard Shaw discovered that they squall,
Rationalists are growing rational--
And through thick woods one finds a stream astray
So secret that the very sky seems small--
I think I will not hang myself to-day.
ENVOI
Prince, I can hear the trumpet of Germinal,
The tumbrils toiling up the terrible way;
Even to-day your royal head may fall,
I think I will not hang myself to-day.
Цитата: DigammaЦитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".
Not so obvious for me. It can be a case when most of dialects lose norm (compare with Russian "ложить") - that's why I say you have to check it carefully.
I didn't say it was obvious what the original way of asking such questions was. I said that it was obvious that a few dialects had the "have you..?" (meaning synchronously).
Gentlemen, double negative is common in American (and British too) colloquial language. There's nothing incorrect. Dont u think so, Rawonam?
If I said "I havent never read" :?:
I've been in New York and Los Angeles and I've heard such a variant.
To be honest, I like Ebonics :)
I can speak Ebonics a little. And you?
Цитата: rawonamI didn't say it was obvious what the original way of asking such questions was. I said that it was obvious that a few dialects had the "have you..?" (meaning synchronously).
:) But what is the non-dialect kind of English? I think British English, isn't it? What is the literary language in this case?
Цитата: Katarina MagnaGentlemen, double negative is common in American (and British too) colloquial language. There's nothing incorrect. Dont u think so, Rawonam?
No, I don't think so.
Цитата: Katarina MagnaTo be honest, I like Ebonics
I can speak Ebonics a little. And you?
Unfortunately, no.
Цитата: DigammaBut what is the non-dialect kind of English? I think British English, isn't it?
I'm not sure I understand what "non-dialect" means.
Цитата: DigammaWhat is the literary language in this case?
You mean, the Standard English? There is no uniform standard, every country has its own one.
Digamma, are you trying to convince me of smth? I told you what I think about it, I showed you the stats, which showed the spreading of the construction. I guess this discussion is sorta unnecessary, isn't it? :_1_12
Цитата: rawonamDigamma, are you trying to convince me of smth?
For what? :???:
Цитата: rawonamI told you what I think about it
Me too. No problem, let's stop it.
The polemics is in full swing
It could be if only the discussion did not stop for a month or so. :)
Цитата: NordIt could be if only the discussion did not stop for a month or so. :)
As far as I know, not this type of English conditionals should be used here.
I would say, we need here not the 2nd but the mixed one: "It could be so (NOW) if only the discussion hadn't stopped..." (because it DID stop in the past).
How do you think? :roll:
ЦитироватьHow do you think?
I think u r right.
Past Perfect it calls :)
When two things had happened and one happened before another - we shall use Past Perfect.
Цитата: Peamurdmisu:lesanneЦитироватьHow do you think?
I think u r right.
Past Perfect it calls :)
When two things had happened and one happened before another - we shall use Past Perfect.
Thanks for the explanations but I guess you're not absolutely right.
That's not just Past Perfect tense but conditionals (namely, it's called mixed conditionals - there're 2 of them, if I'm not mistaken). :)
ЦитироватьThanks for the explanations but I guess you're not absolutely right.
That's not just Past Perfect tense but conditionals (namely, it's called mixed conditionals - there're 2 of them, if I'm not mistaken).
Aye, i may be wrong, i just meant this case with two times together.
I should look in the learnbook next time to be more exact.
Let's call Leo!!!!He'll explain it swiftly, that's for sure
Цитата: Peamurdmisu:lesannePast Perfect it calls
Subjunctive Mood it calls ;)
Цитата: Hopeful
As far as I know, not this type of English conditionals should be used here.
I would say, we need here not the 2nd but the mixed one: "It could be so (NOW) if only the discussion hadn't stopped..." (because it DID stop in the past).
How do you think? :roll:
I guess it would sound better with perfect forms in both clauses: "It could have been so if only the discussion had not stopped for a month or so". Unreal condition in the past, since the discussion did stop.
Цитата: TiziaI guess it would sound better with perfect forms in both clauses: "It could have been so if only the discussion had not stopped for a month or so". Unreal condition in the past, since the discussion did stop.
I would still call it a mixed conditional, when in the if-clause we have the conditional action in the past and in the main clause we have the result in present. Unreal condition in the past but with the result in present. :)
Цитата: TiziaSubjunctive Mood it calls
Why do you write in suh a way? Seems like grammatically incorrect, but I might be wrong.
Isn't ''It is called Subjunctive mood'' right?
ЦитироватьWhy do you write in suh a way? Seems like grammatically incorrect, but I might be wrong.
Isn't ''It is called Subjunctive mood'' right?
It sounds like oldnfair english!
Цитата: DimitriusЦитата: TiziaSubjunctive Mood it calls
Why do you write in suh a way? Seems like grammatically incorrect, but I might be wrong.
Isn't ''It is called Subjunctive mood'' right?
You're right, I also think it is a very weird way to say that.
Цитата: DimitriusЦитата: TiziaSubjunctive Mood it calls
Why do you write in such a way? Seems like grammatically incorrect, but I might be wrong.
Isn't ''It is called Subjunctive mood'' right?
Sure it is. I just paraphrased what the previous poster had said:
Цитата: Peamurdmisu:lesannePast Perfect it calls :)
Maybe I should have put an asterisk or something... Sorry! :oops:
Цитата: HopefulI would still call it a mixed conditional, when in the if-clause we have the conditional action in the past and in the main clause we have the result in present. Unreal condition in the past but with the result in present. :)
I don't know, perhaps you are right. Still I am not that sure that the result necessarily belongs to the present. :???:
Dunno if anybody is going to pay attention to this post. I' m sure it was a kind of a misprint of mine. *A slip of a keyboard it calls. :)
Цитата: TiziaЦитата: HopefulI would still call it a mixed conditional, when in the if-clause we have the conditional action in the past and in the main clause we have the result in present. Unreal condition in the past but with the result in present. :)
I don't know, perhaps you are right. Still I am not that sure that the result necessarily belongs to the present. :???:
Usually, but not necessarily. Moreover, some sentences don't allow that "by design". But to be fair usually time is shifted.
Цитата: Hopeful
How do you think? :roll:
It seems to me that one should say "what do you think?" . "How do you think" may be understood as "by means of what do you think", so the answer should go like this:"I use my brain (or my wit)"...
Добавлено спустя 15 минут 19 секунд: Цитата: DigammaЦитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaAnother abbreviation used quite often is ASAP (As Soon As Possible).
Yeah, this one I know. I was taught it in highschool, because it is formal, as opposed to the other ones, which are used often, but informally. I like most AFAIK and IMHO, among those.
FYI, AFAIK ASAP is MRU (IMHO). ;) ;) ;)
NB! MRU = most-recently used
2B or not 2B :)
These are the longest ones that I came across:
AWGTHTGTTA = are we going to have to go through this again
or
AWGTHTGTTSA = are we going to have to go through this sh* again.
And several more:
BIF = before I forget
CUL8R = see you later
DBEYR = don't believe everything you read
GMTA = great minds think alike.
Interlanguage homography :):
DETI = don't even think it
Добавлено спустя 2 часа 28 минут 56 секунд: Цитата: rawonamЦитата: DigammaЦитата: ФизикЦитата: rawonamso when you see an error in my post and tell me about it, I'll probably remember it for the rest of my life.
I am envious of your memory. It would be great if I could remember any information 'for the rest of my life'. Maybe you'll impart your secret to us?
;) Write it down and always hold the notebook in a pocket. ;)
Better two. Just in case you lose one ;)
:_1_23
Цитата: Lewis Carroll"The horror of that moment," the King went on, "I
shall never, never forget!"
"You will, though" the Queen said, "if you don't make a memorandum of it."
Don't you just love this, everyone talks about English and how American teenagers and the messenger community warped it into cul8r and brb. they are nice and easy to type no particular spelling is necessary; however, when things like this start showing up in term papers as they did in some of my classes. it starts to worry me as does the mecdonalization of the entire world. believe it or not i have seen some funny things in regard to abriviations that we use here and in icq, and some thing like w/ & w/o (with & without) is one of the most common things that i see people write in term papers. i don't know if it's a real problem but imagine the words that we will be introduced to the dictionary a few years into the future... we would be using the caps lock more then lower case :D just a thought
Xsevin
Цитата: XsevinDon't you just love this, everyone talks about English and how American teenagers and the messenger community warped it into cul8r and brb. they are nice and easy to type no particular spelling is necessary; however, when things like this start showing up in term papers as they did in some of my classes. it starts to worry me as does the mecdonalization of the entire world. believe it or not i have seen some funny things in regard to abriviations that we use here and in icq, and some thing like w/ & w/o (with & without) is one of the most common things that i see people write in term papers. i don't know if it's a real problem but imagine the words that we will be introduced to the dictionary a few years into the future... we would be using the caps lock more then lower case :D just a thought
Xsevin
It's not only an American problem, I suppose. :?
Here in Russia such words as
щас (сейчас),
чё (что),
ваще (вообще) are used very often in ICQ, chats, etc.
Цитата: iskenderHere in Russia such words as щас (сейчас), чё (что), ваще (вообще) are used very often in ICQ, chats, etc.
Romanian: pt = pentru (for)
Italian: cmq = comunque (however)
:D
Цитата: iskenderЦитата: XsevinDon't you just love this, everyone talks about English and how American teenagers and the messenger community warped it into cul8r and brb. they are nice and easy to type no particular spelling is necessary; however, when things like this start showing up in term papers as they did in some of my classes. it starts to worry me as does the mecdonalization of the entire world. believe it or not i have seen some funny things in regard to abriviations that we use here and in icq, and some thing like w/ & w/o (with & without) is one of the most common things that i see people write in term papers. i don't know if it's a real problem but imagine the words that we will be introduced to the dictionary a few years into the future... we would be using the caps lock more then lower case :D just a thought
Xsevin
It's not only an American problem, I suppose. :?
Here in Russia such words as щас (сейчас), чё (что), ваще (вообще) are used very often in ICQ, chats, etc.
In my humble opinion :) you're talking about different things. Yours are not pure abbreviations actually.
Цитата: reziaIn my humble opinion you're talking about different things. Yours are not pure abbreviations actually.
And mine?
And I can give you some more, if I think it over a bit. :D
Цитата: reziaIn my humble opinion :) you're talking about different things. Yours are not pure abbreviations actually.
М-дя, perhaps you're right.:D And speaking about pure abbreviations... Hm... I've seen several times such masterpieces as
СПНЧ (спокойной ночи),
пр апп (приятного аппетита).
Цитата: iskenderСПНЧ (спокойной ночи), пр апп (приятного аппетита).
«Мне он не нра». I have seen it a lot of times... :)
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenЦитата: reziaIn my humble opinion you're talking about different things. Yours are not pure abbreviations actually.
And mine?
IMHO those of yours are quite what
Xsevin has told us about.:) As distinct from my examples.
Цитата: iskenderIMHO those of yours are quite what Xsevin has told us about. As distinct from my examples.
IMHO it's not. I mean it's pronounced properly — just «нра».
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenIMHO it's not. I mean it's pronounced properly — just «нра».
No-no, I've ment your Romanian and Italian examples.
Цитата: Vertaler van Teksten«Мне он не нра»...
It reminded me of Yevgeniy Shvarts' (or may be Schwarz :_1_17) tale "The Shadow" ("Тень").
Мы его ку... или у... ?
Цитата: iskenderNo-no, I've ment your Romanian and Italian examples.
Oh yeah. :yes:
Цитата: iskenderМы его ку... или у... ?
And it reminded
me this: «Ĉu vi vo... ma...» in an esperantists' comgress. «Context language».
IITYWISWYBMAD
If I tell you what it says, will you buy me a drink?
:)
WYSIWYG - its very easy to guess. 8)
AAMOF = ?
8-)
as a matter of fact
that was easy, aint it? :roll:
OK, let's start..
I've been learning English for more then 15 years. So nowadays I catch myself in thinking English :dunno: well.. I guess it's a point.
but I still have a problem with my writing'(I'm working as interpreter... so... I'm not often contacting' with wrightin' one)...
What else?....hm.. let's think... ohh.. American, Australian & so on Englishes...That is real horror... oh me God... I really Do hate 'em(rather strange to hear that in fact of me being wrighting in Am.Sp.English:oops:)....Why? I've been taught to speak in Royal English... with those magnificent pronunciation... with its unbelievable idioms such as "Smells funny"... and those disgusting that calls English too.. be Gee&jay....
Also I have really-really stupid teacher in uni....
Yapp... that is our cruel life
(sorry for mistakes i've done:oops::oops::oops:)
Sonia,
hey there in Kyiv. I live there too. ;)
You aint like Am.En? Why? It's so easy to pronounce and understand, aint it. But as for the language of the Island, I wouldnt call smth that sounds like an untuned piano "royal".
paul_kiss, hey u too. How are u doing?
well, it's easier to speak & write it... but for me, who's been taught in Br.Eng & Royal English, it sounds like "Bar-bar" for ancient Romans, you know....
There is a huge difference between 'em...I've neglected my Eng in last 2 years in the meter of teaching in my uni those s**k that someway calls English too...
Sonia,
I'm doing fine thks. I know what you mean about "bar bar". But time changes, and what was Royal long ago, now it's not number 1 anymore I think.
Another aspect -- for Slavic ears British twang is (imho, of course) very hard to perceive. Aint it?
Цитата: paul_kiss
But time changes,
Sure. There's a full version of this proverb:
Time changes and we with time. :)
There's also a variant :
Time works great changes.
By the way, I've never seen such an abbreviation - Br.Eng.
It's usually BrE , in the dictionaries at least.
Цитата: reziaBy the way, I've never seen such an abbreviation - Br.Eng.
It's usually BrE , in the dictionaries at least.
yapp.. that is my abbrevitation. That's becuase I haven't hold the dictionare in my hands for more then 7 years... That is me problame too... and for many interpreters as well:oops::dunno::oops:
Never mind, happens. Though it's rather hard for me to believe that an interpreter can write "then" meaning "than" ;--).
rezia,
why not? I have few really problematic words....Also I'm not translator... and with primary text i never work...You may ask how I pronounce it in right way? I've communicated with native speakers... so to say - there's everything Ok... but write... but let it be...
Other funny point: when i do write i do a lot of grammar mistakes too... I guess it's because of this moment: when I'm speaking i shouldn't think how to write it... but when I write I must think not only bout grammar but spelling as well...
Well.. I have a think which i should work on:oops:
Добавлено спустя 15 минут 22 секунды: Цитата: SoniaI have a think which i should work on
sorry for misprint- it must be in this way "I have things which i should work on"
reziaЦитироватьBy the way, I've never seen such an abbreviation - Br.Eng.
It's usually BrE , in the dictionaries at least.
Actually, it can be just BE. Let it be BE.
Bee-bee. ;) Kind of like "
Two tea to two-two-two" -- or smth like that.
My curiosity assosiated me to take in my hands dictionaries. Well.... It was real surprise for me to see abr. Br.Eng... i piously bealived that it was creted by me.. hm... :o:dunno:
Ok... i have an ask for people who often post here: won't be so kind to point at my mistakes??? i'm going to take in hand my spelling.... so i need more hands:roll::roll::roll:
Цитата: SoniaIt was real surprise for me
I think it should be "it was a real surprice"...
Добавлено спустя 13 минут 41 секунду: Цитироватьi have an ask for people
"I have a request for ..."
Добавлено спустя 4 минуты 5 секунд: ЦитироватьMy curiosity assosiated me to take in my hands dictionaries.
I would say this phrase this way: "My curiosity made me take dictionaries to my hands"...
Somebody, teach me
to think when I'm writing] (*,).... Shame on me...
Why? It's rather horrible- be able to speak perfectly but at the same time make mistakes when you are writing :dunno:
I'll never be a translator:(
but thank you for correcting me ;--)
By the way, other reason why I hate US.E is that they almost don't use articles... it was real boom for me.... I chat with few Americans via ICQ... Oh my God.... they don't use 'em.... my God.... how could it be???... That is awful...no com... And you know, if they would have been teenagers, it had been one point.... but they are adult... my God...
And one else.... They don't follow the rules of time using ... I've heard such muster peaces as "I was go there yesterday" or this one "I being work at the moment"
Добавлено спустя 17 минут 29 секунд: Цитата: paul_kissЦитата:
My curiosity associated me to take in my hands dictionaries.
I would say this phrase this way: "My curiosity made me take dictionaries to my hands"...
well.... can't agree with you... that is a note for my curiosity to be my main *associate* in act I've done... about the sentence ending... well... maybe... but inversion made possible such order in case of wish for stress the main word... in this case it is voc-ry...
But in classical English sentence it should be in order you've said;--)
Цитата: Soniame problame
This is not "royal", this seems like cockney... :) (It's not about the wrong spelling of "problem", it's about the pronoun.)
Цитата: paul_kissЦитироватьIt was real surprise for me
I think it should be "it was a real surprice"...
But still "surpri
se".
RawonaM, Yapp... I used to write only "problem" but after few years or chatting with Americans... I even have written things like "I was go there" and so on for some time... And I still have su**s like 'em, 'cause and etc
Цитата: SoniaRawonaM, Yapp... I used to write only "problem" but after few years or chatting with Americans...
And what about the pronoun? Americans taught you cockney? I can hardly believe, though I understand it is the current fashion to blame Americans... :D
Цитироватьinversion made possible such order in case of wish for stress the main word... in this case it is voc-ry...
"voc-" what, excuse me?
Maybe I'm wrong but I think there's the main way of making inversion in English: "it is/was ... that/who ...".
As for articles, I mean not using them in the AE... well, it depends on who is speaking, actually...
Цитата: RawonaMI can hardly believe, though I understand it is the current fashion to blame Americans...
No, it's not. It is the fact that they've deteriorated English... well... In my opinion(and not only), that "thing" hardly can be called English...
Цитата: SoniaЦитата: RawonaMI can hardly believe, though I understand it is the current fashion to blame Americans...
No, it's not. It is the fact that they've deteriorated English... well... In my opinion(and not only), that "thing" hardly can be called English...
Yes, it IS English. Any other opinions about AE are pure emotions.
Цитата: paul_kisswell, it depends on who is speaking, actually...
you have a point;--)
Цитата: paul_kissMaybe I'm wrong but I think there's the main way of making inversion in English: "it is/was ... that/who ...".
Let's just forget about that... I can't explain why such variant is right too... maybe when I'll found the book calls "Inversions for excellent" we'll continue this discussion... Ok? Honestly, I don't remember that rule :oops:
Цитата: SoniaЦитата: RawonaMI can hardly believe, though I understand it is the current fashion to blame Americans...
No, it's not. It is the fact that they've deteriorated English... well... In my opinion(and not only), that "thing" hardly can be called English...
Well, there are always two opinions on such things: social and scientific. The social is always about being "better or worse", the scientific is about being "different".
Until now you expressed the former, I maintained the last.
But I still somehow belong to human society, so I could say that the British deteriorated English, at least by dropping the r's... 8) Shakespeare would not have forgiven them. :mrgreen:
Цитата: RawonaMBut I still somehow belong to human society, so I could say that the British deteriorated English, at least by dropping the r's... Shakespeare would not have forgiven them.
:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:
Yes, yes and yes... You know, I had a funny situation... I was going to England... It promised me well to hear the native speakers... oh, how happy I was...
But when I'd come there I had a shock. I'd asked one British man what was thy name.... in a word, he hadn't understood me... The same reaction was for hath...
Well... but at least they'd a good pronounce :D
Цитата: paul_kiss
ЦитироватьMy curiosity assosiated me to take in my hands dictionaries.
I would say this phrase this way: "My curiosity made me take dictionaries to my hands"...
Why would you say with "to"? "In hands" seems ok here.
Sonia,
sorry, but I still wanna know what you meant by "voc-ry".
Цитироватьthy name
Yep, the King James Bible style. "Thou shalt not kill" or "Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I might not sin against Thee".
Here's a
Cockney example from "Sea Wolf" by J. London:
Цитировать"Look 'ere, 'Ump," he began, a malicious light in his eyes and a snarl in his throat; "d'ye want yer nose punched? If you think I'm a thief, just keep it to yerself, or you'll find 'ow bloody well mistyken you are. Strike me blind if this ayn't gratitude for yer! 'Ere you come, a pore mis'rable specimen of 'uman scum, an' I tykes yer into my galley an' treats yer 'ansom, an' this is wot I get for it. Nex' time you can go to 'ell, say I, an' I've a good mind to give you what-for anyw'y."
Цитата: paul_kisssorry, but I still wanna know what you meant by "voc-ry".
vocabulary.
RawonaM,
Цитата: RawonaMpaul_kiss пишет:
sorry, but I still wanna know what you meant by "voc-ry".
vocabulary.
:wink: :yes:
paul_kiss,
My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun;
Coral is far more red than her lips' red;
if snow be white, why than her breasts are dun;
If hairs be wires, black wires grow on her head....
and so on.... this is like the siren song for me:) I like all this archaics.... they're like a mirracle:roll:
Цитата: paul_kissHere's a Cockney example from "Sea Wolf" by J. London:
Цитата:
"Look 'ere, 'Ump," he began, a malicious light in his eyes and a snarl in his throat; "d'ye want yer nose punched? If you think I'm a thief, just keep it to yerself, or you'll find 'ow bloody well mistyken you are. Strike me blind if this ayn't gratitude for yer! 'Ere you come, a pore mis'rable specimen of 'uman scum, an' I tykes yer into my galley an' treats yer 'ansom, an' this is wot I get for it. Nex' time you can go to 'ell, say I, an' I've a good mind to give you what-for anyw'y."
sorry for swear, but this is rubbish.... my God...
Цитата: Soniasorry for swear, but this is rubbish.... my God...
I think
this be more close to the British spoken (colloquial) language.
paul_kiss,
but it's still a kind of swear:)
Цитата: Soniapaul_kiss,
but it's still a kind of swear:)
The guy whom belong those words was speaking exactly this way.
Цитата: Soniapaul_kiss,
but it's still a kind of swear:)
The guy whom belong those words was speaking exactly this way.
Swear or not swear, the important thing about the quotation was that the writer used the original phonetics of the person: "tikes" instead of "takes" and other changes in pronunciation :)
And note -- it was made mainly with a tiny small apostrophe - '.
Here are another examples of that twang:
Цитировать"Look at 'im run! Look at 'im run!" I could hear him crying. "An' with a gyme leg at that! Come on back, you pore little mamma's darling. I won't 'it yer; no, I won't."
Цитировать"Ah, my boy," he shook his head ominously at me, "'tis the worst schooner ye could iv selected, nor were ye drunk at the time as was I. 'Tis sealin' is the sailor's paradise -- on other ships than this. The mate was the first, but mark me words, there'll be more dead men before the trip is done with. Hist, now, between you an' meself and the stanchion there, this Wolf Larsen is a regular devil, an' the Ghost'll be a hell-ship like she's always ben since he had hold iv her. Don't I know? Don't I know? Don't I remember him in Hakodate two years gone, when he had a row an' shot four iv his men? Wasn't I a-layin' on the Emma L., not three hundred yards away? An' there was a man the same year he killed with a blow iv his fist. Yes, sir, killed 'im dead-oh. His head must iv smashed like an eggshell. An' wasn't there the Governor of Kura Island, an' the Chief iv Police, Japanese gentlemen, sir, an' didn't they come aboard the Ghost as his guests, abringin' their wives along -- wee an' pretty little bits of things like you see 'em painted on fans. An' as he was a-gettin' under way, didn't the fond husbands get left astern-like in their sampan, as it might be by accident? An' wasn't it a week later that the poor little ladies was put ashore on the other side of the island, with nothin' before 'em but to walk home acrost the mountains on their weeny- teeny little straw sandals which wouldn't hang together a mile? Don't know? 'Tis the beast he is, this Wolf Larsen -- the great big beast mentioned iv in Revelation; an' no good end will he ever come to. But I've said nothin' to ye, mind ye. I've whispered never a word; for old fat Louis'll live the voyage out if the last mother's son of yez go to the fishes."
Yaaakiii:o:o:o
Цитата: SoniaYaaakiii:o:o:o
Hm, what do you mean? ;)
paul_kiss, It means that it is real su**
Цитироватьreal su**
"real sugar"? "real super"?
Цитата: paul_kiss"real sugar"? "real super"?
:D:D:D....
Sonia, Hi!!!! What do you do?
Maybe, "How do you do?" :)
Or "how're you doing?"...
what are you doing? :)
what the heck do you think you're doing?
Is it me, you are asking? :what:
Nope, I'm just developing the "whad...do... you" subject... :)
Цитата: paul_kiss от ноября 27, 2005, 20:50
Nope, I'm just developing the "whad...do... you" subject... :)
Ah, I see. Then "Wudja". The slang variant for "What do you do" :)
Yeah, "wudja gonna do?"... Though I saw it written like "whatcha gonna do?".
I don't understand why people like to laugh at beginners here? If I see a mistake, I try to correct it, and not to mock the person, otherwise s/he will never dare speak English (or German, or Esperanto).
Laugh/mock? :???
No, no one's laughing at anyone here. I wouldn't dare to. :no:
Цитата: Alaŭdo от ноября 28, 2005, 00:03
I don't understand why people like to laugh at beginners here? If I see a mistake, I try to correct it, and not to mock the person, otherwise s/he will never dare speak English (or German, or Esperanto).
Nobody's laughing. Why?
Цитата: paul_kiss (<b>Today</b> at 01:13:30)
Or "how're you doing?"...
How do you do? - "Как вы это делаете?"
All right! - "Только правой!" :lol:
Цитата: Rezia (<b>Yesterday</b> at 21:56:29)
Ah, I see. Then "Wudja". The slang variant for "What do you do"
Looks more like 'would you' to me.
I've taken that from the glossary of slang.
Of course it may actually be "What do you do", but the number of syllables looks a bit insufficient to say the least, whilst 'would you' would look perfectly alright to me.
But I may be wrong.
I ain't know why, but I like the word "ain't" very much...
I ain't have no slightest idea why. ;)
Have anyone
of'ya heard "Cockney" English? If so, does it really sound like:
Цитировать"That'll do, Yonson," one of the men said. "Carn't yer see you've bloomin' well rubbed all the gent's skin orf?"
Цитата: paul_kiss от ноября 28, 2005, 21:40
Have anyone of'ya heard "Cockney" English? If so, does it really sound like:
Цитировать"That'll do, Yonson," one of the men said. "Carn't yer see you've bloomin' well rubbed all the gent's skin orf?"
It does.
Well, I like it.
Цитата: macabro от ноября 28, 2005, 21:12
I ain't have no slightest idea why. ;)
Dear Macabro,
Ain't is a vernacular pronounciation of amn't, aren't, isn't, haven't, hasn't.
But it never replaces don't!
So there ain't no expression like "I ain't have...", only "I don't have".
Well actually you might say "I ain't have" but that would only give away that you are not, hm, very educated or clever.
Elik, I ain't sure, actually.. :) I'll try to find some examples in rap music.. yeah, it's rap music I believe when it comes to language learning, because no other materials can provide so nice explanations of use of some words/expressions in the modern, "alive" language
Цитата: macabro (<b>Today</b> at 18:07:09)
yeah, it's rap music I believe when it comes to language learning, because no other materials can provide so nice explanations of use of some words/expressions in the modern, "alive" language
That's right. Most rappers are not educated and many are not clever. So if you only plan to practise your English conversing with drug dealers and pimps in Harlem or Hackney - good luck. But if you want to ever use this language in a more decent company, you'd better be careful with using expressions you hear in rap lyrics.
Цитата: Drunkie от ноября 29, 2005, 09:05
Well actually you might say "I ain't have" but that would only give away that you are not, hm, very educated or clever.
Maybe you've heard "I ain't having" and mistook it for "I ain't have".
Listen, you guys,
I'd like to give you a strong advice: stop messing around with the English vernacular! Any foreigner who uses all these "aint's" or "we be rockin'" sounds very funny to the native English speakers. The same with the slang. Of course, any foreigner can use the words like "lousy" or "junkie", but never try to imitate the speech of the rappers or some cockney boys - it sounds pretty ridiculous.
Leave the vernacular to whom it belongs - to Texas ranchers, London cockneys, Bronx niggaz, etc. Otherwise you will inevitably find yourself in an incomfortable situation. Believe me. I have a rich and unpleasant experience of misusing the vernacular, so don't repeat my mistakes.
Well, in fact I did hear "I ain't have no idea", f.e.... Native speakers, of course. But Elik's post makes me think deeper about all that...
:eat:
In fact, I'd like to ask you, Elik, which way of speech are unnative speakers better hold to talking to natives? Since you said aints and junkies won't do, what's the alternative? To sound like a Soviet boy from a Soviet English text book: with our Slavic "rrr" and "I sink" instead of "I think" and "zeese tables" instead of "these tables"?
::)
Yeah, and how about "what the heck"/"what the hell"/"goddamn"/f-words? Should we omit them also not to sound ridiculous?
Цитата: Elik от ноября 29, 2005, 19:58
Any foreigner who uses all these "aint's" or "we be rockin'" sounds very funny to the native English speakers. The same with the slang.
I think the same is with using too many idioms. The advanced courses of English offer a great deal of them. So students may believe that an Englishman can't do without these expressions which are sometimes rather old-fashioned or rare.
Цитата: paul_kiss (<b>Today</b> at 21:25:10)
with our Slavic "rrr" and "I sink" instead of "I think" and "zeese tables" instead of "these tables
I think what was discussed was vocabulary, not pronunciation.
Цитата: paul_kiss (<b>Today</b> at 21:25:10)
"what the heck"/"what the hell"/"goddamn
These look quite alright to me. My favourite expression of lazy indifference is 'Oh well, what the hell'. Never got into any trouble saying that.
Цитата: Drunkie (<b>Today</b> at 20:32:55)
I think what was discussed was vocabulary, not pronunciation.
Here, in the thing we're kind of discussing, the pronunciation doesn't go to far from the vocabulary. Just look at the example of the Cockney English I gave yesterday - it's mainly about pronunciation. Another illustration:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
"I only
'ope yer don't ever
'ave to get used to such as that in this life, 'cos you've got a bloomin' soft skin, that you
'ave, more like a
lydy's than any I know of. I was bloomin' well sure you was a gentleman as soon as I set eyes on
yer."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Vocabulary here is nothing especial. But those «'ope» or «lydy» — it's a way of sounding. And I thought we were going around not trying to imitate that.
Whatever.
Saying 'ope' or 'lydy', or 'proice', or 'tyke' or anything else is nothing special either. Cockney accent is about as far removed from an educated man's speech as 'zeese tables'. If you want to sound boorish - sound Cockney. But being a foreigner, you will not only sound boorish, but also you will likely misuse the expressions and miscopy the accent, which is plain stupid.
Цитата: Drunkie (<b>Today</b> at 20:59:52)
If you want to sound boorish - sound Cockney.
I tried — I can't. LOL The English of The Island is very hard to imitate, for me.
Cockney is not the sole 'English of The Island'. There are dozens of other accents that equally belong there.
Even Brummy and Edinburgh amongst them :)
Цитата: paul_kiss от ноября 29, 2005, 20:25
In fact, I'd like to ask you, Elik, which way of speech are unnative speakers better hold to talking to natives? Since you said aints and junkies won't do, what's the alternative? To sound like a Soviet boy from a Soviet English text book?
Dear Paul Kiss,
English is so beautiful and rich! Don't waste its beauty trying to copy the ugly and poor pronounciation and expressions of the marginal groups! You must understand - all this vernacular sounds
marginal to any native speaker! The vast majority of Americans and British will never use all these ain'ts!
As to your question about the unnative speakers. Just try to speak
proper English. The native speakers will appreciate it much more than your juggling with the vernacular. Of course, you may use slang or even f-words. But for God's sake, use them only when you are
dead sure that you use them properly! This sureness comes with the years of experience. You can't learn the vernacular from books or films. You have to live in the USA (or UK) for a good couple of years in order to start feeling what is proper and what is not.
Цитата: Drunkie (<b>Today</b> at 21:20:32)
Cockney is not the sole 'English of The Island'. ...Even Brummy and Edinburgh amongst them
Both Brummy and Edinburgh and what ever in the Island - are UNPRONOUNCEABLE. For me, of course. All I'm saying is my deep humble opinion.
But another thing's about the AE. I perceive it easier. Much more than the BE. Ain't know (LOL) why, though.
Have anyone of you heard Stray Cats/Brian Setzer? Which of the American accents do they have?
Thanks for the answer, Elik.
I know the type of music "Stary Cats" play. It's rockabilly.
Yep, (more exactly it's neo-rockabilly, but anyway), and Brian Setzer's Orchestra is neo-swing.
Цитата: paul_kiss (<b>Yesterday</b> at 22:38:38)
Both Brummy and Edinburgh and what ever in the Island - are UNPRONOUNCEABLE. For me, of course. All I'm saying is my deep humble opinion.
But another thing's about the AE. I perceive it easier. Much more than the BE
I personally find AmE more standardised and therefore its accents are easier to understand. BrE has a far greater variety of accents, some of which are pretty hard to perceive, let alone imitate. But I find the standard BrE pronunciation much more natural, if you like, and it's BrE I speak. I just can't stand all this strong aRRRticulation of AmE.
It's a matter of taste. I speak AmE and see no problem with that.
And I believe that all these debates "what English is more correct: British or American?" do not sound better than the debates "what is more correct: German or Dutch / Russian or Ukrainian?"
Just let the people speak their language!
:UU:
'More correct'? Did I ever mention something was 'more correct'?
I thought I only spoke of my personal perception.
No, I was speaking in general. I just heard too much BS about "what pronunciation is more correct" and try to stop such discussions right from the start.
But there's nothing wrong in talking about your personal perception, of course.
To my personal perception, some British speak in such a manner that I barely recognize that they speak English.
And I'll give you a good example of "the correct British pronunciation". The songs of the Sex Pistols sounded so unintelligible to the American audience, that the producers had to put subtitles in their clips. Ridiculous, isn't it? Who would even think of putting subtitles for any Russian clip intended for Russian speakers?
Nothing personal ;-)
Цитата: Elik (<b>Today</b> at 20:42:02)
To my personal perception, some British speak in such a manner that I barely recognize that they speak English
That's called 'variety of accents'. Russian is far more uniform.
Цитата: Elik (<b>Today</b> at 20:42:02)
"the correct British pronunciation". The songs of the Sex Pistols sounded so unintelligible to the American audience, that the producers had to put subtitles in their clips
The Sctottish film 'Trainspotting' was also shown with subtitles in the US, because the Yanks couldn't understand Scots. So what? That only means that Americans have little idea about how other versions of English sound - they are only familiar with that of their own. And the variety of English sung by John Lydon is not "the correct British pronunciation".
Yeah, Sex Pistols have (well, had) a really cool Island twang. :) Elik, do they really speak like that in the British Island?
Цитата: "paul_kiss" от
Elik, do they really speak like that in the British Island?
I'm not Elik, but anyway: yes they do. And I've heard far worse examples than the Sex Pistols.
Most British rock singers try to make their accent sound less British so that the songs are better marketable in the US. Only a few actually sing/sang like they speak: The Sex Pistols, The Cure, Blur, Pulp, The Libertines, (ahemn) Depeche Mode and some others.