Good and fluent command of many languages pertains to many visitors of this forum. My question will address exactly those: how do you think, it is more a virtue or a plague -- the ability to speak many (let's say more than 3 foreign) languages? What advantages or disadvantages could it have?
Цитата: Alaŭdo от мая 27, 2006, 18:09
Good and fluent command of many languages pertains to many visitors of this forum. My question will address exactly those: how do you think, it is more a virtue or a plague -- the ability to speak many (let's say more than 3 foreign) languages? What advantages or disadvantages could it have?
Why a virtue or a plague? It's great, and that's it. :green:
I think there can be no disadvantage if you really like it. And if you don't feel going crazy everything is OK.
Цитата: Vertaler от мая 27, 2006, 18:48
I think there can be no disadvantage if you really like it.
Yet, let us not forget that knowing too much holds some disadvantages. People calling you smart ass and stuff like this... ;D
Or, as Ecclesiastes would put it: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow".
I guess you're right. But, then- just don't tell anyone how smart you are, until the moment comes. Then, instead of calling you a smart ass, they'll, perhaps thank you... or perhaps they won't.
I think it just depends on where you are. A friend of mine lives in the in the deep South of the USA where many are highly suspicious when it comes to languages, so he better is quiet until the right moment comes. ;)
I know this thread mainly addresses fluent speakers but personally I see the disadvantages a few steps earlier.
A problem of learning multiple languages I have is that I mix them in my brain from time to time which can become tedious, if you are searching for a word, e. g. if I want to write in French it's not very helpful, if my brain give me Russian words instead of French ones, or when I want to write in Russian I sometimes have to think of Esperanto words. Nevertheless, I think that you have this problem only, if you are not yet advanced enough in the languages you are learning because I have this problem with English only very rarely.
What are your experiences?
Цитата: "Tony" от
A problem of learning multiple languages I have is that I mix them in my brain from time to time
And so do I :)
What is more awful is my usage of English grammar in Russian daily communication at home etc. It tended on TV, as it can be observed.
I will never simplify Russian grammar in writing (as there's a time enough to think) but I make lapses in speech. Well begin is half done and time will show if we break our native languages for the International one. :what:
Цитата: "Jumis" от
And so do I :)
Yes, I've caught myself at thinking "Was ist das?" instead of "что это?" sometimes ;D
Цитата: SS от августа 14, 2006, 11:26
Цитата: "Jumis" от
And so do I :)
Yes, I've caught myself at thinking "Was ist das?" instead of "что это?" sometimes ;D
Nope, there's a more awful matter appears. For instance, I could say "Не уверен,
если смогу дойти до кровати" instead of "Не уверен,
смогу ли..."
It looks too ridiculous if I write it. But I really talk like that often... :wall:
Maybe when I'll learn some more languages, will speak like this too... But even now, when I try to speak English, Hungarian words sometimes come to my mind faster than English ones :)
Anyway, quoting one very famous person, "as many languages you speak, as many times you are a man."
Multilingualism is wonderful as soon as not necessarily you can speak another language, but if you can even understand what you are told in a language that isn't your mother tongue. This only advantage can leave all the drawbacks behind. Of course, we must strive to make the languages we speak as pure as possible, untouched by any influence from the outside. But it will surely come with time and experience.
Цитата: Jumis от августа 14, 2006, 17:21
Nope, there's a more awful matter appears. For instance, I could say "Не уверен, если смогу дойти до кровати" instead of "Не уверен, смогу ли..."
It looks too ridiculous if I write it. But I really talk like that often... :wall:
My friend, if you ever come to Israel, you will shiver all over when you hear the language that Russian Israelis speak. A mixture of Russian with bad Hebrew interweaving with English and foul Arabic. Brrrrrrrr!
мон шер ами, это просто возмутительно, иль финира трэ маль :green:
Вот, точно, а если ещё вспомнить, как в России разговаривали век-другой назад... :)
Цитата: SS от августа 15, 2006, 10:20
Вот, точно, а если ещё вспомнить, как в России разговаривали век-другой назад... :)
-- Поручик, стойте-с! Что это у Вас?
-- Кипяток-с!..
-- На}{Yй-с!
-- Извольте-с!
-- Ааааааааааа! Тон маман, мерзавецццц, тон маман!..
:green:
I think multilingualism is definitely a virtue. You are more aware of language in general. Besides that it is much easier to learn further languages.
But mixing up languages sometimes can be a problem. When I came back to Germany after a year in Poland, I sometimes failed to find the correct word in German in some situations. I actually had a 0 in my brain, not Polish.
Now, since my wife is Polish and we are speaking in Polish to each other most of the time, I sometimes even have problems with German syntax. And there certain words or phrases in Polish for which I don't know a good German equivalent. May be often there is none.
Цитата: György от сентября 22, 2006, 22:14
I think multilingualism is definitely a virtue. You are more aware of language in general. Besides that it is much easier to learn further languages.
...
Now, since my wife is Polish and we are speaking in Polish to each other most of the time, I sometimes even have problems with German syntax. And there certain words or phrases in Polish for which I don't know a good German equivalent. May be often there is none.
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language, doesn't matter if it is German or Polish. It mostly depends upon your command, sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language, but it is mostly because you are not so skilled in interpreting. In your case I would say, that your (evidently) good command of Polish is combined with moderate interpreting skills and experience, so, it is difficult for you to reach the same expression level in German. That basically contradicts to your thesis, that "multilingualism is definitely a virtue". :)
Цитата: "Alaŭdo" от
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language
Don't forget about the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis ;)
Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 23, 2006, 02:28
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language, doesn't matter if it is German or Polish. It mostly depends upon your command, sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language, but it is mostly because you are not so skilled in interpreting. In your case I would say, that your (evidently) good command of Polish is combined with moderate interpreting skills and experience, so, it is difficult for you to reach the same expression level in German. That basically contradicts to your thesis, that "multilingualism is definitely a virtue". :)
May be I should add that these problems with syntax occur most often when I talk to my wife.
We are living in Germany and when I am in a 100% German environment I do not have these problems at all. Vocabulary sometimes remains a problem, but I think even Monolinguists experience that from time to time.
Multilingualism is a virtue although there are some negative aspects, too. But compared to the advantages they are really neglectable.
Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 23, 2006, 02:28
[sometimes it is still tricky to find a fully satisfying equivalent in other language
e.g.
diminutives, here Slavic languages are much richer than Germanic
some sentences are "translatable", but they appear ridiculous to me in German
We are raising our son bilingual and sometimes it is really difficult for me to say something in German "child language" what I've heard from my wife in Polish "child language" before.
Цитата: Dana от сентября 23, 2006, 06:46
Цитата: "Alaŭdo" от
There are always ways to render the same idea in target language
Don't forget about the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis ;)
That's why I am so cautious writing about this. There are things you can not translate directly, but to my knowledge and according to my experience there are always ways to deliver the same idea using words and grammar immanent to the target language.
BTW: what about this hypothesis? did they manage to (dis)prove it? As far as I am informed the Longlan project almost failed...
ЦитироватьMay be I should add that these problems with syntax occur most often when I talk to my wife.
We are living in Germany and when I am in a 100% German environment I do not have these problems at all. Vocabulary sometimes remains a problem, but I think even Monolinguists experience that from time to time.
I doubt that monolingual German speakers (= bearers of German language) face these problems (though I may be wrong). Somehow I know no one monolingual person, at least in the vicinity. But I don't think they have much problems expressing themselves in their only language.
ЦитироватьMultilingualism is a virtue although there are some negative aspects, too. But compared to the advantages they are really neglectable.
It actually depends upon your environment. Living in Germany with perfect Turkish is much more useful, as with perfect Tatar :)
Цитата: György от сентября 23, 2006, 13:22
e.g.
diminutives, here Slavic languages are much richer than Germanic
some sentences are "translatable", but they appear ridiculous to me in German
Still, diminutives are common in German "child language", words like "Entchen", "Körbchen", "Füßchen", "Händchen", "Tischlein" etc are usual and used often, maybe not as often as in Russian. Here I do not see any big problems with translation.
ЦитироватьWe are raising our son bilingual and sometimes it is really difficult for me to say something in German "child language" what I've heard from my wife in Polish "child language" before.
Surely this is not so easy, but I would rather ascribe it to your (probably) worse command of German language, than to the penury of German "Kindersprache".
Fortunately, I speak exactly three languages and therefore, disqualify as multilingual :-)
To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.
That's why it's better to limit your interest in languages to reading only.
Цитата: Читатель от сентября 23, 2006, 13:39
To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.
I speak (fluently or natively) exactly 5, so I can not qualify for "more than 5". Nonetheless I do not have the symptoms you're describing. Basically you have to "tune up" to the language. For the first half an hour it is problematic, then it gradually fades out. I need approximately 40 mins to switch to another language and about a week to get as fluent in it as I was before. This applies to my native languages too.
Цитата: Читатель от сентября 23, 2006, 13:39
Fortunately, I speak exactly three languages and therefore, disqualify as multilingual :-)
To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.
That's why it's better to limit your interest in languages to reading only.
Only with words or phrases borrowed or descending from the same source. So speaking closely related languages, when you constantly have to juggle them, can be confusing. Otherwise it doesn't take much effort to separate the apples from the oranges.
The trouble is when you attempt to lay out your thoughts in one language when the initial feeling or thought was in another. The best thing to do is to tune yourself into a language depending on the people surrounding you. Otherwise you won't do much better than one of those online translators :)
Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 25, 2006, 14:08
Цитата: Читатель от сентября 23, 2006, 13:39
To be serious, I always thought that learning to speak fluently more than 5 languages can be very awkward - you'll end up hopelessly mixing words and languages.
I speak (fluently or natively) exactly 5, so I can not qualify for "more than 5". Nonetheless I do not have the symptoms you're describing. Basically you have to "tune up" to the language. For the first half an hour it is problematic, then it gradually fades out. I need approximately 40 mins to switch to another language and about a week to get as fluent in it as I was before. This applies to my native languages too.
if you have to "tune up" for half an hour, that's not fluency! ::)
I've know, for example, that I can speak fluent (but sure not grammatically correct) Polish after having a couple pints of beer ;D
Never managed that when sober...
Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 25, 2006, 14:08
I speak (fluently or natively) exactly 5, so I can not qualify for "more than 5". Nonetheless I do not have the symptoms you're describing. Basically you have to "tune up" to the language. For the first half an hour it is problematic, then it gradually fades out. I need approximately 40 mins to switch to another language and about a week to get as fluent in it as I was before. This applies to my native languages too.
So you obviously have the same problem as I do with my three and a half languages that I speak fluently. I don't understand why you claimed earlier that I am allegedly lacking competence in my native language German. Almost all multilinguals I know have this problem. It's normal.
@ Andrej82: "The trouble is when you attempt to lay out your thoughts in one language when the initial feeling or thought was in another."
Yup, the same applies to me.
Because my wife and I spoke all the time in Polish when we met, it later became very difficult for us to talk in German. It was as if we had to start from zero. Now we are even managing to have a nice conversation when we are speaking in our native languages - she Polish and I German.
Цитата: Читатель от сентября 26, 2006, 15:08
if you have to "tune up" for half an hour, that's not fluency! ::)
I've know, for example, that I can speak fluent (but sure not grammatically correct) Polish after having a couple pints of beer ;D
Never managed that when sober...
I would disagree. Noone can switch from one language into another just on spot. Surely I can speak "basic" English fluently without much effort, but in order to get fluent not only in what regards weather or "how-do-you-do" conversation I need time. I bet you too!
Цитата: György от сентября 26, 2006, 21:41
So you obviously have the same problem as I do with my three and a half languages that I speak fluently. I don't understand why you claimed earlier that I am allegedly lacking competence in my native language German. Almost all multilinguals I know have this problem. It's normal.
I am not doubting on your command of German, my suggestion was that you hadn't had any kids brought up in german before, so some things common for the language of children could sound unusual or strange to you. I have never brought up children in my native language, I do not know what sort of rhymes or whatever are used here, but as soon as the time comes, I am sure, I will learn it.
The fact that not everything can be translated is beyond any doubt :) at least in this forum, I hope :) did I take something wrong?
Learning languages prevents us from mental degradation in later years :???.
Цитата: Alaŭdo от сентября 27, 2006, 01:54
Цитата: Читатель от сентября 26, 2006, 15:08
if you have to "tune up" for half an hour, that's not fluency! ::)
I've know, for example, that I can speak fluent (but sure not grammatically correct) Polish after having a couple pints of beer ;D
Never managed that when sober...
I would disagree. Noone can switch from one language into another just on spot. Surely I can speak "basic" English fluently without much effort, but in order to get fluent not only in what regards weather or "how-do-you-do" conversation I need time. I bet you too!
I switch from Russian to English in the middle of a sentence, even a phrase, even in the middle of a word. That's because I'm fluent in two languages. I know Ukrainian, but alas, I cannot say that I am fluent in Ukrainian anymore. I used to be.
Doesn't anyone experience the symptom that you "adjust" your language involuntary to the language proficiency of the one you speak with? It happens to me obviously: when I talk to a native speaker, I am quick and fluent; but talking to a mediocre speaker makes me stumble over simplest phrases.
It's probably the rythm of speech (la cadenza) that I involuntary try to copy. I am also quite susceptible to picking up accents. I've recently got an italian accent in my English, it sounds terrible. :-)
Цитата: svarog от марта 15, 2007, 22:53
Doesn't anyone experience the symptom that you "adjust" your language involuntary to the language proficiency of the one you speak with? It happens to me obviously: when I talk to a native speaker, I am quick and fluent; but talking to a mediocre speaker makes me stumble over simplest phrases.
It's probably the rythm of speech (la cadenza) that I involuntary try to copy. I am also quite susceptible to picking up accents. I've recently got an italian accent in my English, it sounds terrible. :-)
I sometimes speak with a Bulgarian or a Polish accent... when I'm talking to Bulgarians or Poles.
Цитата: svarog от марта 15, 2007, 22:53
Doesn't anyone experience the symptom that you "adjust" your language involuntary to the language proficiency of the one you speak with? It happens to me obviously: when I talk to a native speaker, I am quick and fluent; but talking to a mediocre speaker makes me stumble over simplest phrases.
It's probably the rythm of speech (la cadenza) that I involuntary try to copy. I am also quite susceptible to picking up accents. I've recently got an italian accent in my English, it sounds terrible. :-)
Yes, I do and it really annoys me. The reasons for that are probably beside the points you made lack of concentration and lack of self confidence, since this kind of problem appears more often when I haven't practised the language for a while.
Цитата: "György" от
Yes, I do and it really annoys me. The reasons for that are probably beside the points you made lack of concentration and lack of self confidence, since this kind of problem appears more often when I haven't practised the language for a while.
Zachod !!! +1
Sometimes I feel that I know too little!Buu I understand that I have some knowlegde but not enough practics.Today I wanted to talk to foregners but they all ignored me..
In my opinion it's not so difficult to learn a language, let alone to confuse them :no: e.g. I'm Armenian, therefore I know Armenian. Plus I also study Russion, English, Spanish and Chinese :) I'm going to study also German, Greek and maybe French. it's so interesting :yes:I don't and I'm sure I won't mix anything... You should be more sure in yourself!!! ;up:
Well I think that knowing more than 3 languages at B1 or higher level has its major disatvantage, either you use those language or you forget them.. for instance, knowing only 3 languages for me is a great deal, on other hand, other two are in a slight worse state than English (Russian and Lithuanian respectively, a reasonable excuse though, I'm studying English in university). I'd prefer a better grip in 2 languages, lets say at C1 level, than 3 or more at B1 or higher.. Deliberatly philologist should study languages, however the more you know, the harder you can remember where the ^%$# should be used progressive tenses in a rather silly situation (just one of the examples which can occur).
While studying languages I'd avoid same language family ones, for instance Polish and Czech can be pretty evil when it comes to sstudying them, or dialectal differences of Spanish/Portuguese..
So overall I think it should be known as a virtue with sanity :P