What do you think: how much attention should be given to the pronunciation? It's known that English speakers are used to different pronunciations, so it's not a problem for English learners, but what about other languages? How do people react to foreign accent in France, Germany etc?
Цитата: RawonaM от декабря 6, 2005, 00:09
What do you think: how much attention should be devoted to the pronunciation? It's known that English speakers are used to different pronunciations, so it's not a problem for English learners,
There is a very hard problem in aural comprehension of native English speakers by non-native ones. A few months ago, I used to meet an old Irish man. He said my English was good, but he could not understand why I could answer him only after he had repeated something like "Those trees are nice, aren't they?" four or five times. :green:
Цитата: "Amateur" от
There is a very hard problem in aural comprehension of native English speakers by non-native ones.
Oh yeah, I know it very well. When the Irish talk in movies, sometimes I have to rewind a few times to understand what they say. :)
It's more inconvenient during real conversation — no rewind button. ;D
During a real conversation you can always ask to repeat or (better) to rephrase.
Ability to comprehend an accent depends primarily on your amount of exposure to it.
Цитата: "Drunkie" от
During a real conversation you can always ask to repeat or (better) to rephrase.
Sense of humor?.. Imagine a conversation when each phrase is repeated.
Цитата: "Drunkie" от
Ability to comprehend an accent depends primarily on your amount of exposure to it.
No doubt.
Цитата: "RawonaM" от
Imagine a conversation when each phrase is repeated.
Sometimes, there's simply no other choice. It's better than no conversation at all.
I remember as an Irish woman told me: "I have no tools!"
Only after a long investigation I realized that she meant "towels"!
This is English. It sounds very strange to a Slavonic ear. That's where all problems start from.
What do you think: can this problem with English native-speakers be connected with the fact they learn forreign languages not so frequently like not-english-speaking people do?
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
can this problem with English native-speakers be connected
What problem?
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
learn forreign languages not so frequently like not-english-speaking people do?
Why do you think so?
Цитата: RawonaM от декабря 7, 2005, 18:33
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
can this problem with English native-speakers be connected
What problem?
The incidental problem, that is, in the scattered nature of different pronunciations in the English language. As far as I understood your post... ::)
Цитата: RawonaM от декабря 6, 2005, 00:09
It's known that English speakers are used to different pronunciations, so it's not a problem for English learners ...
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
learn foreign languages not so frequently like not-english-speaking people do?
Why do you think so?
[/quote]
For the reason that the English speakers just don`t need to learn foreign language, and studying any for them is like luxury. Unless it`s a profession or hobby, people don`t learn foreign language after relatively-successful exams. In particular English speakers.
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
The incidental problem, that is, in the scattered nature of different pronunciations in the English language. As far as I understood your post... ::)
By "different pronunciations" I meant mostly foreign accents. Speakers of any language (or of most languages) are used to local phonetic differences in the community.
Цитата: RawonaM от декабря 6, 2005, 00:09
What do you think: how much attention should be given to the pronunciation?
As much as to be enough for the ability to pronounce without rude mistakes that can cause misunderstanding.
Цитата: "Seryj Slon" от
Unless it`s a profession or hobby, people don`t learn foreign language after relatively-successful exams. In particular English speakers
People in general don't learn foreign langauges unless it is a profession, hobby, or essential for survival, regardless of their native language. English speakers are no exception.
Pure Englishmen don't need to learn foreign languages at all, because their native language is an international language. You can come to any country and you will have no problem to communicate by English.
Цитата: killer107 от августа 24, 2006, 10:40
Pure Englishmen don't need to learn foreign languages at all, because their native language is an international language.
Not only theirs. Russian, French, Spanish, too.
Цитата: killer107 от августа 24, 2006, 10:40
You can come to any country and you will have no problem to communicate by English.
Are you sure?
Цитата: "killer107" от
Pure Englishmen don't need to learn foreign languages at all, because their native language is an international language. You can come to any country and you will have no problem to communicate by English.
Oh yes they often will have problems. Because the English spoken in England is by no means the English spoken internationally.
That's funny! In many countries even those who know English usually display their bitchness, not speaking it at all! You can ask them something several times however no reaction follows. But if you pronounce their native word, they are about to fervently kiss you! Sorry for my running to extremes 8-)
The French you probably mean here, particularly Canadian French.
Цитата: Radley от октября 12, 2006, 12:26
The French you probably mean here, particularly Canadian French.
:D I've noticed that if they think you are American or Anglophone Canadian, some Quebecois (?) aren't very friendly, but once they realize you are from another continent they become much more enthusiastic about helping you (even when you don't know French). 8-)
Цитата: "Смайлик" от
I've noticed that if they think you are American or Anglophone Canadian, some Quebecois (?) aren't very friendly, but once they realize you are from another continent they become much more enthusiastic about helping you (even when you don't know French).
Yeah, that pretty much applies to France as well. They positively hate it when English holidaymakers come to France expecting that every one they come in contact with will speak English, and will pretend not to know any Egnlish at all. But when they see you're actually not from England, their English will improve dramatically :)
Our ex-teacher in German told us that if ,for instance, a person from Schleswig-Holstein and the other person from Bavaria would have a talk, they would barely understand each other.
About learning languages. Actually,we study "Hochdeutsch", but it is spoken only on TV and by foreigners. It can be also seen in books, newapapers, e. t. c. If you speak Hochdeutsch in Germany, people will understand at once that you're a foreigner
I think regional dialects aren't as pronounced in German cities as they are in the countryside. So what you may hear in a city would come pretty close to standard German (with some local dialectisms depending on the geographic location), or so I read. I've never stayed in a German-speaking country long enough to find out. Anyways, there are plenty of people who live in Germany on this forum, maybe they will enlighten us. :)
Смайлик, you are defintely right. Because of higher population fluctuations towards and within the cities, the dialects (indegenous and those who have moved to the city) more and more vanish. This is typical for bigger towns, and not only in Germany, of course.
apokalyptische Reiterin, you are also right. I generally have a hard time with southern languages. I mean the languages, not the standard language with a local sound realisation.
Germany has been and often still is very repressive concerning local languages/dialects, though the Southern ones are left in peace whereas the Northern ones were suppressed for a very long time and they are still depicted as some folklorish stuff. This attitude goes back to the age of the famous "Hanse"1 as Low German2 had been the language you had to know, if you wanted to make money.
Swedish still bears many Low German traces because many loanwords had entered the language at that time.
(1 roughly from the Netherlands to Novgorod; my town (Berlin) also belonged to the Hanse, and was also Low German2 speaking until the 19th century - but those days are over *sigh*)
(2 the Low Saxon variant spoken in Germany)
I doubt any Slavic language speaker can learn proper English pronunciation, be it American, or English, or Australian, without growing up in that country. In that sense I am lucky.
I think it will be better when, we will have a language other than English as international, or may be, the English with corrupted pronunciation.
Цитата: iopq от марта 5, 2007, 09:39
I doubt any Slavic language speaker can learn proper English pronunciation, be it American, or English, or Australian, without growing up in that country.
I'd say every person with a more or less good ear, a good imitation ability, a high motivation, a lot of patience and a good teacher can learn the proper pronunciation of any language. The problem is that the combination of all these factors is rather rare.
Цитата: ginkgo от марта 8, 2007, 21:55
Цитата: iopq от марта 5, 2007, 09:39
I doubt any Slavic language speaker can learn proper English pronunciation, be it American, or English, or Australian, without growing up in that country.
I'd say every person with a more or less good ear, a good imitation ability, a high motivation, a lot of patience and a good teacher can learn the proper pronunciation of any language. The problem is that the combination of all these factors is rather rare.
The problem is that you can't imitate all the allophones with the correct amount of aspiration or labialization or voicing in every case.
For the word spit, the p is not affricated, in pit it is affricated. In right, r is labialized, but in criteria it is not.
Often, d is devoiced in English... but not aspirated
it's too hard to first study all of these distinctions and then apply all of them in every single case IN REAL TIME
Цитата: iopq от марта 10, 2007, 04:14
The problem is that you can't imitate all the allophones with the correct amount of aspiration or labialization or voicing in every case.
Why do you think so? You can. You just need to have a good ear, a good imitation ability, etc., see above.
Цитата: iopq от
For the word spit, the p is not affricated, in pit it is affricated. In right, r is labialized, but in criteria it is not.
Often, d is devoiced in English... but not aspirated
It's not as difficult as it seems, there are lots of such things in German, too, or in other European languages. Some african click sounds must be much harder to master I imagine :)
Btw, what do you mean by the affricated p in
pit? The aspiration?
Цитата: iopq от
it's too hard to first study all of these distinctions and then apply all of them in every single case IN REAL TIME
Nobody says it's easy. But it's possible (and it's fun!!), as well as it's possible to study all the phonetical nuances of German or Spanish or any other language well enough to be able to apply them correctly, to distinguish between regional accents, etc. Even Slavic language speakers can do that :green:
Цитата: ginkgo от марта 10, 2007, 23:05
Цитата: iopq от марта 10, 2007, 04:14
The problem is that you can't imitate all the allophones with the correct amount of aspiration or labialization or voicing in every case.
Why do you think so? You can. You just need to have a good ear, a good imitation ability, etc., see above.
Цитата: iopq от
For the word spit, the p is not affricated, in pit it is affricated. In right, r is labialized, but in criteria it is not.
Often, d is devoiced in English... but not aspirated
It's not as difficult as it seems, there are lots of such things in German, too, or in other European languages. Some african click sounds must be much harder to master I imagine :)
Btw, what do you mean by the affricated p in pit? The aspiration?
Цитата: iopq от
it's too hard to first study all of these distinctions and then apply all of them in every single case IN REAL TIME
Nobody says it's easy. But it's possible (and it's fun!!), as well as it's possible to study all the phonetical nuances of German or Spanish or any other language well enough to be able to apply them correctly, to distinguish between regional accents, etc. Even Slavic language speakers can do that :green:
I meant to say p in pit is aspirated. I will read up on German phonology and I will post a file of me reading some things in German. I've never studied German except for the phonology. People will tell me if my pronunciation is good or not! :) I think I have a very good ear and ability to imitate because I've been listening and imitating different language songs, like Romanian, Japanese, German and Norwegian.
I think if anyone can do it, it would be me.
An interesting idea, jorq, I'm looking forward to your file :yes:
Of cause a prononsatioo shoudn't be ignored.But it's not the most important.It.s important,but you must not speak like native speakers if you don't live in that country.When you'll live there then you'll get it.
s/must not/don't have to :)
you must not = ты обязан этого не делать
you don't have to = ты не должен этого делать
Ну да :-)
Цитата: Elik от декабря 6, 2005, 19:30
I remember as an Irish woman told me: "I have no tools!"
Only after a long investigation I realized that she meant "towels"!
This is English. It sounds very strange to a Slavonic ear. That's where all problems start from.
The same thing is about Russian English for a native speaker of English. One can say "moron" and the other will get it as "moral" (which is a true example from real life).
Цитата: Rezia от апреля 11, 2009, 00:01
The same thing is about Russian English for a native speaker of English. One can say "moron" and the other will get it as "moral" (which is a true example from real life).
So exactly how you're supposed to pronounce it so that he understands it?
Цитата: Чайник777 от апреля 11, 2009, 00:53
Цитата: Rezia от апреля 11, 2009, 00:01
The same thing is about Russian English for a native speaker of English. One can say "moron" and the other will get it as "moral" (which is a true example from real life).
So exactly how you're supposed to pronounce it so that he understands it?
With correct vowel reduction, of course. None of that akanye shit!
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2009, 02:13
With correct vowel reduction, of course. None of that akanye shit!
It's way too hard for me. I'd rather stick to my Russian accent with kartavost' :green:
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2009, 02:13
With correct vowel reduction, of course. None of that akanye shit!
The poststressed vowels are reduced to shwa in Russian.
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 5, 2012, 19:27
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2009, 02:13
With correct vowel reduction, of course. None of that akanye shit!
The poststressed vowels are reduced to shwa in Russian.
the quality and the conditions of vowel reduction are not the same in English and in Russian
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 03:15
the quality and the conditions of vowel reduction are not the same in English and in Russian
It reffers to initial or prestressed vowels, but what's the difference between shwa in Russian and shwa in English?
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 6, 2012, 09:53
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 03:15
the quality and the conditions of vowel reduction are not the same in English and in Russian
It reffers to initial or prestressed vowels, but what's the difference between shwa in Russian and shwa in English?
because in roses it's not a schwa, it's a "schwi" - [ɨ]
Rosa's has a schwa
also English has lots of unstressed diphthongs and all kinds of things that would make a Russian speaker's tongue fall off and run away
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:05
because in roses it's not a schwa, it's a "schwi" - [ɨ]
Rosa's has a schwa
Can you really hear such a difference?
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:05
also English has lots of unstressed diphthongs and all kinds of things that would make a Russian speaker's tongue fall off and run away
The same is vice versa, and only iopq can speak both languages effortlessly
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 6, 2012, 15:19
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:05
because in roses it's not a schwa, it's a "schwi" - [ɨ]
Rosa's has a schwa
Can you really hear such a difference?Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:05
also English has lots of unstressed diphthongs and all kinds of things that would make a Russian speaker's tongue fall off and run away
The same is vice versa, and only iopq can speak both languages effortlessly
you would be able to tell roses from Rosa's, but not vice versa because the pronunciation with schwa is allowed for roses, but schwi is not allowed for Rosa's
also, who says I speak Russian effortlessly? half of the words coming out of my mouth are in English
(the rest are Ukrainisms like жменя)
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:53
you would be able to tell roses from Rosa's, but not vice versa because the pronunciation with schwa is allowed for roses, but schwi is not allowed for Rosa's
I see. I think vowel reduction is not the most difficult aspect of English pronunciation for Russians which can cause misunderstanding. English stressed vowels give much harder time.
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 6, 2012, 15:55
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:53
you would be able to tell roses from Rosa's, but not vice versa because the pronunciation with schwa is allowed for roses, but schwi is not allowed for Rosa's
I see. I think vowel reduction is not the most difficult aspect of English pronunciation for Russians which can cause misunderstanding. English stressed vowels give much harder time.
except when Russian speakers say things like [каталак] instead of catalog
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 6, 2012, 15:55
English stressed vowels give much harder time.
The length of English vowels is one of the hardest thing to hear for a native speaker of Russian.
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:57
except when Russian speakers say things like [каталак] instead of catalog
They cannot say such things. If they put the stress on the first syllable, they will reduce the last two to shcwa. "a" is pronounced in Russian only in the stressed, the first prestressed and the inintial position.
Цитата: Chocolate от марта 6, 2012, 15:58
The length of English vowels is one of the hardest thing to hear for a native speaker of Russian.
It is non-phonemic.
Цитата: Маркоман от марта 6, 2012, 16:01
Цитата: iopq от марта 6, 2012, 15:57
except when Russian speakers say things like [каталак] instead of catalog
They cannot say such things. If they put the stress on the first syllable, they will reduce the last two to shcwa. "a" is pronounced in Russian only in the stressed, the first prestressed and the inintial position.
that's what I mean, catalog has an "unstressed" or at least "tertiary-stressed" or whatever [ɔ] in the last syllable while Russian has a qualitative reduction