How about double negation?
"They don't show no love"
"I don't need no excuses" etc
Is is still a sign of being uneducated or it's more or less ok nowadays?
Well, in the scope of good old English grammar it is terrible. But one can come across such cases quite often. It used to be a sign of being uneducated before... Now it is kind of fashionable to make such mistakes on purpose. If the Beatles and the Rolling Stones spoke like that, everyone can...
The Beatles and the Rolling Stones never spoke like that!
Double negation shows that the speaker is an ignorant and uneducated person. Period.
Sometimes educated people use double negation when they try to sound sarcastic.
You can hear such expressions in songs, because they imitate the speech of the black gangs (rap songs) or white ranchers (country songs). But never try to use the double negation in your speech. It's a very bad English!
Well, this is a theoretical section, so it is worth noting that double negation is not a new feature of the language, but rather old. In the 16-17th centuries the grammarians labelled it wrong because of logical considerations — in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.
Цитата: "RawonaM" от
in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.
But in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya
nikogda
ne vernus syuda".
~ paul_kiss
Цитата: paul_kiss (guest) от декабря 6, 2005, 16:49
Цитата: "RawonaM" от
in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.
But in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda".
And in many other languages.
Цитата: Elik от декабря 6, 2005, 07:33
The Beatles and the Rolling Stones never spoke like that!
Are you one hundred per cent sure?
I am dead sure. I heard many interviews of the Beatles and Stones. They spoke proper English as 90% of the English speaking population does.
Цитата: Elik от декабря 6, 2005, 19:20
I am dead sure. I heard many interviews of the Beatles and Stones. They spoke proper English as 90% of the English speaking population does.
Yes, I see. But are you also sure about the lyrics?
Lyrics have their special style. Don't try to follow the patterns of the songs in your spoken English! It will sound ridiculous.
They may sing "I ain't got no style" in some rock'n'roll, but they never spoke in such a manner.
Ok, now I understand your point. :)
Elik, I meant songs... It's not the interviews that most people listen to, but the songs. And in the songs there are loads of grammatical mistakes made for stylistic purposes! Including the double negation. I can reinforce my statement with numerous examples if you like.
Do, please.
Цитата: Dark от декабря 7, 2005, 23:57
Elik, I meant songs... It's not the interviews that most people listen to, but the songs. And in the songs there are loads of grammatical mistakes made for stylistic purposes! Including the double negation.
Nobody is denying that, as far as I see. The point that Elik made some posts above was that one shouldn't copy the style of the song lyrics into the "normal" speech. An interview gives a much better model for it... at least it shows the usual way a person speaks.
Цитата: Elik от декабря 6, 2005, 07:33
Double negation shows that the speaker is an ignorant and uneducated person.
Sometimes educated people use double negation when they try to sound sarcastic.
Absolutely agree, and just wanted to add that it's a stylistic device sometimes used by English speaking writers. If you'd like to know more about all this, you can visit this site http://refolit.narod.ru - It's dedicated to interpretation of English. At the Stylistica page you can find out what double negation is.
"We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control..." Pink Floyd, "Another Brick in the Wall"
Just an example... I want to clear things up. I meant only the song lyrics, not everyday speech. But many people do speak like that. I would have never said that, if I hadn't heard it.
It may be worth adding that Old English used the particle "ne-" for negation, like the other IE languages: "Nis [ne + is] naenig swa snotor", "Tha dumban hundas ne magon beorcan" (from my book: no one is so wise, those dumb dogs can't bark)
The double (multiple) negative is alive and kicking in the UK. Most working class people (read 'most people') use it on a regular basis. My landlady in Cambridge would say things like "ain't got no more chicken" or "can't do no more shopping neither", etc.
I never heard..
It is also sometimes a feature of AAVE (Afrivan American Vernacular English)
As far as I know, some West African languages have agreement by negation.
Цитата: RawonaM от декабря 6, 2005, 17:05
in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda".
An existence of 'the double negation in Russian' is a myth. The fact is that the russian particle 'ni' isn't negative. The 'ni' is an intensifying particle. Every russian schoolboy know about it. So we have got only one negation the 'ne'.
We can translate word for word 'Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda' as 'I shan't return here at any time'
Do you mean that "nikogda", "nikto" etc. do not have any negation inside?
Цитата: Евгений от февраля 26, 2010, 02:21
Do you mean that "nikogda", "nikto" etc. do not have any negation inside?
Not only I think so. All russian schoolchildren are taught this in the age of 14 years. In detailed sentences the pronouns with the particle "ni" are used only in combination with the particle "ne". But the negation with a "ne" without "ni" are quite common. Conclusion: "ne" is negation. "Ni" means the amplifying of it. And no any double negation!
One can be heard "Nikogda.", "Nikto." etc as a separate word.
They should be interpreted as incomplete answers. "Nikogda [ne <verb>].", "Nikto [ne <verb>]." No any negation inside. It is omitted!
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 04:15
Not only I think so. All russian schoolchildren are taught this in the age of 14 years.
Wow, what a great argument.
But what about "Ya nikto"?
Цитата: Алексей Гринь от февраля 26, 2010, 05:43
Wow, what a great argument.
I wrote this not as an argument. How to link to the source.
Цитата: Алексей Гринь от февраля 26, 2010, 05:43
But what about "Ya nikto"?
It's not a negation. What is negated? It mean "I have cost a few".
The negation of "someone" will be "Ya
ne kto, a chto. Bot". ;)
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 04:15
Цитата: Евгений от февраля 26, 2010, 02:21
Do you mean that "nikogda", "nikto" etc. do not have any negation inside?
Not only I think so. All russian schoolchildren are taught this in the age of 14 years. In detailed sentences the pronouns with the particle "ni" are used only in combination with the particle "ne". But the negation with a "ne" without "ni" are quite common. Conclusion: "ne" is negation. "Ni" means the amplifying of it. And no any double negation!
One can be heard "Nikogda.", "Nikto." etc as a separate word.
They should be interpreted as incomplete answers. "Nikogda [ne <verb>].", "Nikto [ne <verb>]." No any negation inside. It is omitted!
Let's talk about word-formation. Here are to pairs:
kto - nikto
gde - nigde
Two questions:
1) How many morphemes do you find in these words?
2) How would you describe the meanings of these morphemes?
ЦитироватьThe 'ni' is an intensifying particle.
Of course it is. In Tibetan!
Цитата: Евгений от февраля 26, 2010, 19:14
Two questions:
I have no idea how I have to answer. You answer, please. This way: it is obvious that a person, for whom studing of linguistics was finished at school, he could say so and so...
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 20:23
I have no idea how I have to answer.
You don't have to. So you don't have any reasonable answer?
Цитата: Евгений от февраля 26, 2010, 19:14
kto - nikto
gde - nigde
It is obvious that a person, for whom studing of linguistics was finished at school, he could say...
All the 4 words are pronouns in primary form (nominative).
The first word of each pair are the relative pronouns. Because without a question mark. They link clauses in the compound.
The latter words are negative pronouns. The proposal amplify negation.
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 07:57
ЦитироватьBut what about "Ya nikto"?
It's not a negation. What is negated?
Compare: "Ya
nikto" = "I am
nobody". You say, it isn't negation at all (and even doesn't imply it). OK.
So, concerning the phrase
"
Nobody does
n't want it" = "
Nikto
ne hochet etogo".
it turns out, according to you, that in English we have the same so-called `intensification` (nobody isn't negation, you said) + negation.
So, what's the difference?
By the way, what about "nehoroshiy", "neplohoy" - no negation, too?
Nikto = !Kto-to.
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 21:06
It is obvious that a person, for whom studing of linguistics was finished at school, he could say...
All the 4 words are pronouns in primary form (nominative).
The first word of each pair are the relative pronouns. Because without a question mark. They link clauses in the compound.
The latter words are negative pronouns. The proposal amplify negation.
That's not what I've asked.
Цитата: Евгений от февраля 27, 2010, 00:27
That's not what I've asked.
Well, excuse me. At school I was taught to do morphological analysis of pronouns. Guess what you want to get an answer - not taught.
Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 27, 2010, 07:05
Well, excuse me. At school I was taught to do morphological analysis of pronouns. Guess what you want to get an answer - not taught.
Aren't you familiar with the term "morpheme"?
It's called double negation since technically (etymologically) it's double negation, although functionally it's "intensification" + negation in both languages.
I can not say that I agree with mr.Rusiok but perhaps
"Ya nikto" = "Ya ne yest' nikto"
"Ya nikto" = "I am not anybody"
because a verb "to be" does not use in such phrases, guess "not to be" does not too.
:eat:
There are sentences:
"Ya tut" (yest')
"Menya tut net" (=ne yest')
It probably proves that my guess is wrong. Wazzup?
Цитата: basta от марта 29, 2010, 15:40
Wazzup?
how old is this post? it's like it's 2001 again
Цитата: basta от марта 29, 2010, 15:40
but perhaps "Ya nikto" = "Ya ne yest' nikto"
In this example, the word "nikto" now has the meaning 'one who does not matter', 'one who is not related to something'. Morpheme 'ni' not singled out.
I do not want to talk about the origin of this meaning.
What do you mean it's not singled out? How should it be singled out?
Here are more examples:
Ni on, ni ona
Ni kuszajet, ni spit
ni obviously has a negative meaning
Цитата: iopq от апреля 6, 2010, 07:41
Ni on, ni ona
We were taught in school: "Answer in a complete sentence." Let's try to follow this advice. Obviously, the first example is incomplete without the verb with the particle "ne": "Ni on, ni ona ne ver'at". We'll replace the subject on a pronoun: "Oni ne ver'at". "Nikto <iz nikh> ne verit". Well, what happened? The particle "ne" is negation. Moreover, it is required. The particle "ni" can, without much damage to the meaning, be omitted. But if it has presented, then the statement sounds more categorical. Conclusion: "ni" is not a negative particle, but it is an amplifying one.
Цитата: Rusiok от апреля 10, 2010, 04:18
Цитата: iopq от апреля 6, 2010, 07:41
Ni on, ni ona
We were taught in school: "Answer in a complete sentence." Let's try to follow this advice. Obviously, the first example is incomplete without the verb with the particle "ne": "Ni on, ni ona ne ver'at". We'll replace the subject on a pronoun: "Oni ne ver'at". "Nikto <iz nikh> ne verit". Well, what happened? The particle "ne" is negation. Moreover, it is required. The particle "ni" can, without much damage to the meaning, be omitted. But if it has presented, then the statement sounds more categorical. Conclusion: "ni" is not a negative particle, but it is an amplifying one.
Are you daft?
On ni kuszajet, ni spit.
FULL SENTENCE
Цитата: iopq от апреля 10, 2010, 05:33
On ni kuszajet, ni spit.
FULL SENTENCE
I think it is proper to write "ne", not "ni". Children's riddle: "Ne layet, ne kusayet, a v dom ne puskayet". Who is it? A complete answer would be: "Eto zamok ne layet, ne kusayet, a v dom ne puskayet" (This is a lock does not bark, not bite, but does not allow enter home). Or here's another saying: "Ne kuyot, ne melet". Note: the predicate is always used "ne".
Цитата: Rusiok от апреля 10, 2010, 07:09
Цитата: iopq от апреля 10, 2010, 05:33
On ni kuszajet, ni spit.
FULL SENTENCE
I think it is proper to write "ne", not "ni". Children's riddle: "Ne layet, ne kusayet, a v dom ne puskayet". Who is it? A complete answer would be: "Eto zamok ne layet, ne kusayet, a v dom ne puskayet" (This is a lock does not bark, not bite, but does not allow enter home). Or here's another saying: "Ne kuyot, ne melet". Note: the predicate is always used "ne".
Those things mean something different
"On ni kuszajet, ni spit" means "He neither eats nor sleeps"
"On ne kuszajet i ne spit" means "He doesn't eat and doesn't drink"
"ni ... ni" is the Russian equivalent of "neither ... nor"
ne just means "not"
if I meant "ne" then I would have written "ne"
http://www.gramma.ru/RUS/?id=13.7
Цитата: iopq от апреля 10, 2010, 13:03
"On ni kuszajet, ni spit" means "He neither eats nor sleeps"
"ni ... ni" is the Russian equivalent of "neither ... nor"
http://www.gramma.ru/RUS/?id=13.7
You see, gramma.ru mentions no "ni ... ni" as equivalent to English "neither ... nor". One or two "ni" are used in the Agens to amplify the negation. In particular, the Agens may be Infinitive of the verb. "On ni kushat', ni spat' ne mozhet (so he had a toothache). I find it difficult to make a sentence which contains Agens as a personal form of the verb.
Sorry, of course instead of 'Agens' must read 'Actant'.
Лично я не уверен, что можно сказать "он ни кушает, ни спит". Обычно "ни... ни" со сказуемым(и) не употребляется.
Цитата: Artemon от апреля 11, 2010, 02:31
Лично я не уверен, что можно сказать "он ни кушает, ни спит". Обычно "ни... ни" со сказуемым(и) не употребляется.
Я сам на интернете этот пример нашел
вот еще: [Собака] ни плачет ни скулит, спит спокойно.
Цитата: Rusiok от апреля 10, 2010, 17:01
Цитата: iopq от апреля 10, 2010, 13:03
"On ni kuszajet, ni spit" means "He neither eats nor sleeps"
"ni ... ni" is the Russian equivalent of "neither ... nor"
http://www.gramma.ru/RUS/?id=13.7
You see, gramma.ru mentions no "ni ... ni" as equivalent to English "neither ... nor". One or two "ni" are used in the Agens to amplify the negation. In particular, the Agens may be Infinitive of the verb. "On ni kushat', ni spat' ne mozhet (so he had a toothache). I find it difficult to make a sentence which contains Agens as a personal form of the verb.
That still doesn't address my point. The sentence I wrote is a valid Russian sentence, does not contain the word "ne." In this sentence word "ni" is used as a negative. Writing it with "ne" is incorrect spelling and/or grammar.
Цитата: Artemon от апреля 11, 2010, 02:31
Обычно "ни... ни" со сказуемым(и) не употребляется.
I agree with you, but please do not go to the Russian language. I specifically write in this section, when discussing an interesting topic for me to study English linguistic terms.
Цитата: Artemon от апреля 11, 2010, 02:31
Лично я не уверен, что можно сказать "он ни кушает, ни спит".
You can say anything you want. But I wonder: whether it will standard, in terms of rules of text generating.
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2010, 02:51
The sentence I wrote is a valid Russian sentence, does not contain the word "ne." In this sentence word "ni" is used as a negative. Writing it with "ne" is incorrect spelling and/or grammar.
Я специально посмотрел употребление "ni ni" с помощью поисковика. Одной из первых встретилась страничка http://rusgram.narod.ru/2661-2673.html .
At this entire page with lots of examples the "ni ... ni" with a personal form of the verb is not mentioned. I was particularly pleased with the coincidence of § 2663 with my intuitive sense of the rules of generation of Russian texts.
Well, more examples of "ni" being used in the negative sense:
День был летний, душный и знойный. Нигде ни облака. (Тург.);
Следов нигде никаких. (Гиляр.)
Of course, you're going to claim there is an implied "нет" in these sentences but if you can't say "есть" to mean the opposite, isn't the "нет" not necessary anyway?
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2010, 22:02
Нигде ни облака. (Тург.);
Следов нигде никаких. (Гиляр.)
isn't the "нет" not necessary anyway?
Yes, it isn't. The word "нет" is clearly implied in these fragments. You can do without it. And you'll be understood.
But. These fragments are not clauses. They are actants only. They have not predicates. Compare with translation into English:
Nowhere clouds.
No trace of nowhere.
Цитата: Rusiok от апреля 12, 2010, 00:04
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2010, 22:02
Нигде ни облака. (Тург.);
Следов нигде никаких. (Гиляр.)
isn't the "нет" not necessary anyway?
Yes, it isn't. The word "нет" is clearly implied in these fragments. You can do without it. And you'll be understood.
But. These fragments are not clauses. They are actants only. They have not predicates. Compare with translation into English:
Nowhere clouds.
No trace of nowhere.
Russian has a "zero copula" in the present tense:
Я американец.
This is a full sentence in Russian, and you can't argue it's not by translating it into English:
*I American.
That's non-sense. You can't do that between languages.
Obviously the zero copula is used here. These are NOT fragments, they are full sentences. They start with a capital letter and end in a period. I'm sure the editor would have caught these mistakes if they were actually fragments.
Not to mention I found these examples in the link you gave me. These are correct examples of using the ni- words.
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2010, 22:02
Нигде ни облака.
Следов нигде никаких.
Just try to convert these sentences into past:
Нигде не было ни облака. Следов нигде никаких не было. Voila, 'ne's appear.
Цитата: Тайльнемер от ноября 20, 2010, 14:16
Цитата: iopq от апреля 11, 2010, 22:02
Нигде ни облака.
Следов нигде никаких.
Just try to convert these sentences into past: Нигде не было ни облака. Следов нигде никаких не было. Voila, 'ne's appear.
No shit, negation agreement, in MY Russian? It's more likely than you think!