Is the diphthong in rider longer than writer in those dialects where the consonants are pronounced identically or are those two words homophonous?
When I try to think about it, it seems to me that I pronounce "writer" and "riiider". But I think that this difference is so slight that in real fast speech it totally disappears.
I dunno about you, but i pronounce "t" and "d" clearly in these words. Though "i" pronounciation does not differ indeed.
Цитата: Beermonger от августа 17, 2009, 17:16
I dunno about you, but i pronounce "t" and "d" clearly in these words.
In America most people weaken their t's and d's between vowels and after sonants and turn them into a quick flap. I simply follow the tendency. Like, if for instance I say "seventy" or "better" with a clear "t", Americans right away think that I have some kind of a European accent.
Цитата: Beermonger от августа 17, 2009, 17:16
Though "i" pronounciation does not differ indeed.
What about "bid" and "bit"? Are the two i's different in your pronunciation?
Цитата: regn от августа 17, 2009, 17:22
What about "bid" and "bit"? Are the two i's different in your pronunciation?
Well when i say them naturally (w/o focusing on it), i tend to pronounce "bid" half-way to "beed", with slightly longer "i" (though not as long as in "sleep" for example), while in "bit" its short.
I would define such correspondences in my pronunciation:
city :: short
bit :: short
bid :: half-long
reading, me :: both long
sleep :: half-long (though different from "bid" in quality)
read :: long
Цитата: regn от августа 17, 2009, 18:09
bid :: half-long
I believe it should be a short vowel, (note the word
should, it doesn't mean that it must be the same in your idiolect) because if you accidentally lengthen it more than usual it will become like in
bead (long i), and the general idea of mispronouncing words in fast speech is sometimes funny. (when we're talking we usually can't notice our faulty pronounciation)
for e.g. bad-bed in fast speech for some people can change into /bɛd/ instead of /bæd/ (for instance one guy from Cornwall in UK always mispronounces these two, but in the context it's easier to understand its meaning)
Цитата: Aleksey от августа 18, 2009, 09:48
I believe it should be a short vowel, (note the word should, it doesn't mean that it must be the same in your idiolect) because if you accidentally lengthen it more than usual it will become like in bead (long i)
The vowel is longer before voiced consonant, in will be longer in
bead respectively.
Furthermore, the quality of the vowel in bead and in bid is very different
Цитата: RawonaM от августа 18, 2009, 12:22
Furthermore, the quality of the vowel in bead and in bid is very different
To my ear only length is their main difference, maybe I'm deaf? :(
Цитата: Aleksey от августа 18, 2009, 09:48
if you accidentally lengthen it more than usual it will become like in bead (long i)
No it won't!
Цитата: Aleksey от августа 18, 2009, 13:19
To my ear only length is their main difference, maybe I'm deaf?
I can stretch out "biiiiiiiiiiid" and then quickly utter "bead" (very short) - and any American will perfectly understand me, i.e. they will know that the first word is "bid" and the second one is "bead".
The two vowels are radically different in quality. Their length is a secondary parameter (more of a historic thing).
Цитата: Aleksey от августа 18, 2009, 09:48
I believe it should be a short vowel, (note the word should, it doesn't mean that it must be the same in your idiolect)
It usually gets lengthened before a voiced consonant. Same can found in "should; bed; rid" etc.
Whether the length of English diphthongs depends on voicedness\voicelessness of the following consonants? :???
Цитата: Ванько Кацап от августа 18, 2009, 17:17
Whether the length of English diphthongs depends on voicedness\voicelessness of the following consonants?
When I say "tide" and "tight", the vowel in the first word is definitely longer...
Цитата: regn от августа 18, 2009, 17:19
the vowel in the first word is definitely longer...
Hmmm... I've never read about positional lengthening of the diphthongs. AFAIK, they just lose their second element and become shorter in fast speech. Have I missed something? :donno:
Цитата: Ванько Кацап от августа 18, 2009, 18:01
Have I missed something?
OK, let's try a few more words:
ride ~ right
boys ~ exploit
glaze ~ hate
sound ~ scout
In each pair the vowel in the first word is longer in my pronunciation.
Цитата: iopq от августа 17, 2009, 12:32
Is the diphthong in rider longer than writer in those dialects where the consonants are pronounced identically or are those two words homophonous?
I just had a thought... It's actually kind of weird: in both "writer" and "rider" the initial syllable is open. And in open syllables long vowels and diphthongs are usually long, and their length should not depend on the quality of the consonant starting the next syllable... :-\
Цитата: Aleksey от августа 18, 2009, 13:19
To my ear only length is their main difference, maybe I'm deaf?
One more little thing: open an American dictionary (any of the Longman's, for example) that has IPA transcriptions. You will see that the vowel in the word "bead" is transcribed as [bid] with no length mark. In GenAm English, length is a secondary feature that is often not even marked in dictionaries.
Also, words like "talk walk pool" are trascribed [tɔk] [wɔk] [pul], i.e. with no length markers.
I'm not sure if it is useful, but I've found a little information about flapping and lengthening
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnsen/files/unpub/Flapping%20and%20underlying%20vowels%20in%20American%20English.pdf
http://books.google.ru/books?id=NPXxghZ1MjkC&lpg=PA215&ots=vjkXwWMNmJ&dq=lengthening%20diphthongs%20before%20consonants&hl=en&pg=PA214#v=onepage&q=lengthening%20diphthongs%20before%20consonants&f=false
Цитата: regn от августа 17, 2009, 18:09
bit :: short
bid :: half-long
sleep :: half-long (though different from "bid" in quality)
read :: long
Недавно заглянул в "Английский для вас" В.С.Шах-Назаровой (М., Высш .шк., 1987) в связи с темой о звонкости смычных (это вообще отдельный прикол).
стр 20.
Цитировать
Английские гласные (долгие и краткие) произносятся длительнее в ударном конечном слоге, длительно перед сонантами и звонкими согласными и кратко перед глухими согласными. (Сравните: ten - Ted - tet.)
- Ага. Щас. Делать больше нечего. Будто мало других забот -
фонологических долгот, - подумал я. -Это примерно из той же оперы, где утверждается, что русские глухие на конце слова становятся "еще более глухими".
А насчет bid и bead и т.п.:
В американском варианте, в отличие от британского, фонологически
значимыми является не долгота, а тембровые различия. Это отражается и в словарной транскрипции.
Цитата: iopq от августа 17, 2009, 12:32
Is the diphthong in rider longer than writer in those dialects where the consonants are pronounced identically or are those two words homophonous?
I hear no difference, I distinguish
to write from
to ride though.
Цитата: wikiIn most varieties of American English pairs such as pouter/powder and rider/writer are pronounced exactly the same.
Цитата: alkaigor от августа 27, 2009, 23:04
ЦитироватьАнглийские гласные (долгие и краткие) произносятся длительнее в ударном конечном слоге, длительно перед сонантами и звонкими согласными и кратко перед глухими согласными. (Сравните: ten - Ted - tet.)
- Ага. Щас. Делать больше нечего. Будто мало других забот -фонологических долгот, - подумал я.
Совершенно правильно написано. Гласные дольше перед звонкими.
Цитата: alkaigor от августа 27, 2009, 23:04
- Ага. Щас. Делать больше нечего. Будто мало других забот -фонологических долгот, - подумал я.
Ну дык.. Если вам нужно отшлифованное произношение native-like или хотя бы почти безакцентное, то придется учитывать все нюансы. А если не нужно, то и забот нет.
Цитата: alkaigor от августа 27, 2009, 23:04
В американском варианте, в отличие от британского, фонологически значимыми является не долгота, а тембровые различия. Это отражается и в словарной транскрипции.
Да, только если вы не будете выдерживать долгот, у вас будет акцент :yes:
Ужас.
Цитата: Ванько Кацап от августа 19, 2009, 14:52
I'm not sure if it is useful, but I've found a little information about flapping and lengthening
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnsen/files/unpub/Flapping and underlying vowels in American English.pdf
Как раз в тему.
Похоже, позиционная долгота гласных перед звонкими согласными свойственна и американскому, и британскому вариантам (если не говорить о
всех).
write (
rait) - rider (
ra:id);
В открытом слоге
writer - rider в говорах с нейтрализацией -t- -d- впечатления о различной длительности гласного скорее навеяны аналогией
write - ride. Иначе пришлось бы констатировать возникновение нового противопоставления по долготе. Подождем лет 100 - увидим. :-)
Как я понял, flapping не возникает перед слоговым носовым: written. Припоминаю, что есть еще "глоттализация" (если не ошибаюсь, в британском тоже). И вроде, в частности, перед -
n.
Цитата: Ванько Кацап от августа 31, 2009, 01:29
Цитата: Artemon от августа 31, 2009, 00:47
Ужас.
wot? :what:
Вот-вот. Что творится. Историческая фонетика при живых свидетелях. И ведь не задушишь, не убьешь.
Цитата: alkaigor от августа 31, 2009, 08:33
Как я понял, flapping не возникает перед слоговым носовым: written. Припоминаю, что есть еще "глоттализация" (если не ошибаюсь, в британском тоже). И вроде, в частности, перед -n.
Послушал записи, тут есть два варианта: либо обычный т без флаппинга либо назальный спуск. Назальный спук тоже двух вариантов, либо образованный глоттисом (при глоттализации) либо увулой (без глоттализации).
Цитата: iopq от августа 17, 2009, 12:32
Is the diphthong in rider longer than writer in those dialects where the consonants are pronounced identically or are those two words homophonous?
Not to necropost, but one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this regard is that in some people (like me), the quality of the vowels in the diphthong differs in "write" and "ride," and this is reflected in other forms of the words, e.g., writing/riding, writer/rider.
Specifically (and without recourse to IPA symbols, which I don't know), "write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open -- closer to the Russian "a" as a matter of fact). The "ui" diphthong is also shorter than "ai," as others have mentioned in this thread.
And this distinction survives suffixing, which means that I distinguish between "writer" ("ruidr") and "rider" ("raidr") (the "d" here is a tongue-flap).
Just another point on the graph.
Цитата: vkladchik от октября 5, 2009, 16:26
Specifically (and without recourse to IPA symbols, which I don't know), "write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open -- closer to the Russian "a" as a matter of fact). The "ui" diphthong is also shorter than "ai," as others have mentioned in this thread.
Interesting! Are you talking about American English now? What region is this typical for?
Yeah, American English. I think this is a northern thing. I also pronounce the "h" in what, when, whether, etc. ('hwat" etc.).
I don't know if those two traits are linked.
Цитата: vkladchik от октября 5, 2009, 16:26
"write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open
It's the so-called "Canadian raising":
Цитата: Ванько от августа 19, 2009, 14:52
I'm not sure if it is useful, but I've found a little information about flapping and lengthening
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnsen/files/unpub/Flapping and underlying vowels in American English.pdf
Цитата: alkaigor от октября 5, 2009, 22:56
It's the so-called "Canadian raising":
Oh yeah, I think I know what that is. It's when "about" sounds almost like "aboat".
Цитата: alkaigor от октября 5, 2009, 22:56
It's the so-called "Canadian raising":
Well, I don't know what it's called, but I can tell you I don't sound like a Canadian. I don't pronounce "about" like "a boat," for example. (Or say "eh?" :D)
My father is from Michigan, but my mother is from Texas, and that's where I grew up (Houston).
It could also happen that you don't really have any difference, you only think you have :) I've never heard about two different "ai" diphthongs. I'll try to find out.
Цитата: RawonaM от октября 6, 2009, 00:56
I've never heard about two different "ai" diphthongs. I'll try to find out.
Actually, I think I know what he's talking about. He's right - they are different.
Also, I have just read today in a book on Russian phonetics that many AmE speakers have two fairly different diphthongs in the words "write" and "ride". And the difference is not based on length. The two sounds are clearly different in quality.
That's always a possibility, but as I sit here and say them, they sure sound different.
I'll see if there's a way to record this and put the sound file in the Файлы forum.
This difference is also in biting/biding. One interesting side-effect is that "ruidid" sounds fine but "raidid" doesn't. "Raidid" sounds like an incorrect realization of the past tense of "ride," but "ruidid" is fine because of "righted" (as in "he righted the chair").
From: (wiki/en) Canadian_raising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_raising)
Canadian raising is a phonetic phenomenon that occurs in varieties of the English language, especially Canadian English, in which diphthongs are "raised" before voiceless consonants (e.g., /p/, /t/, /k/, /s/, /f/). /aɪ/ (the vowel of "eye") becomes [ʌi], while the outcome of //aʊ// (the vowel of "loud") varies by dialect, with [ʌu] more common in the west and a fronted variant [ɛʉ] commonly heard in Central Canada. In any case, the /a/-component of the diphthong changes from a low vowel to a mid-low vowel ([ʌ] or [ɛ]).
Right. As I said, it might be a northern thing, but it's definitely not Canadian-sounding. I definitely say [ʌi] in front of voiceless consonants, but this carries over when the [t] becomes a tongue-flap.
Цитата: vkladchik от октября 10, 2009, 08:17
Right. As I said, it might be a northern thing, but it's definitely not Canadian-sounding. I definitely say [ʌi] in front of voiceless consonants, but this carries over when the [t] becomes a tongue-flap.
So biting and biding (as in biding your time) are both raised?
No, what I mean is this.
In my speech, I make this [ʌi]/[ai] distinction before unvoiced and voiced consonants.
However, that distinction remains even when the following unvoiced consonant becomes voiced, in the form of a tongue-flap.
In other words...
bite = bʌit
bide = baid
BUT!
biting = bʌiɾiŋ
biding = baiɾiŋ
ditto with
writing = rʌiɾiŋ
riding = raiɾiŋ
(I looked up the IPA symbol for the North American tongue flap, and apparently it's ɾ.)
So the ʌi/ai distinction survives the changing of the condition which initially creates it (voice of following consonant).