Лингвофорум

Hi guys, sorry I cannot speak in Russian, but I'm from Croatia. Though we speak Croatian(Slavic langauge) I doubt that someone could understand me everything. That's why I am going to write in English. If you prefer, I can rewrite it in Spanish or in German. Or in Croatian:D

So, I'm really interested in the phonetics. I'd like to know the correct manner to pronounce some letters in as many languages as possible. Of course, Slavic countries. Baltics incluided.

Starting with the letter "L".
East(Russia, Belrus, Ukraine). In Russian, the L is really closed and dark. I know that in Belrus you have some letter, it's similar to Y with hat and it's something like Ł in Polish, right? What about Ukranian? Is it the same L as in Russian or different.
Next, letter Ś, is it the same in all countries or ??
H in Ukraine, do you have some "normal" H or it's always the H from the stomach? :)

West(Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland)
As well, I wanna hear something about L. I know that in Polish they have Ł, but it's more like W in English. Czech/Slovak??
After E, do you have to soften the last consonant just like after I. For example: hlavní ("hlavňí"). And after Y, in the same way as with I?

South(Croatian, Slovenian, Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian)
I know them most because they are near me (more or less):D

Thank you guys!

letter, sorry

Цитата: matko
West(Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland)
As well, I wanna hear something about L. I know that in Polish they have Ł, but it's more like W in English. Czech/Slovak??
After E, do you have to soften the last consonant just like after I. For example: hlavní ("hlavňí"). And after Y, in the same way as with I?

L in Polish - you're correct. In Czech/Slovak there is not such a letter.
After E - you mean before E, don't you?
In Czech D,T,N is to be softened before I (i).
In the "soft" case before E, it has to be (ussually!) signed by soft sign upon this letter: ě Ě.
(In the group mě we read, of course, mňe - мне).
In another cases, there's a J before ě e.g. věra - vjera (вьера, вера).
Also there is no soft L in czech language.
In Slovak, there is no ě.
Before E, I the letters D, T, N, L are simply allways softened. (as in russian)
( There are some few exceptions, that can be derived from etymology, I guess)

Another unusual letters:
In czech:
Ů - long u ( can not be in the beginnig of the world),
ř - soft r (between r and zh=ž)
In slovak:
ä - like in "black", can it be simple e (or ev'rywhere between a-e)
ô - uo, where u is bilabial vowel "w" or in another description Ŭ,  ŭ .
This ô is allways read in one syllabe, e.g. kokôtik (a cock) [ko-kŭo-tik], not [ko-ku-o-tik].

Are you satisfied enough now, or another questions?
Shall be glad to answer them, if it's possible ...
:)
P.S. You can four-square write in Croatian...

Well, I have almost forgotten...
In the position before "y" there is no softening.

So e.g. tydzień (PL), týden(CZ)[-de-], týždeň(SK)[-ďe-] - it is allways [ty-][ты-] (a week/неделя, со дня по "той же день", семь дней))
Writing Y or I, it is by the etymological reasons (as it has remained in russian),
there is no difference between pronouncion of them (I hope).
In south slavic languages it's easier (no ypsilon "y"), isn't it? :)

In west slavonic group sometimes can be syllabic l,r (- liquids).
E.g. smrt(CZ) - the death,
blood - krev(CZ), genit. krve; krew(PL), gen.krwi (one syllabe!), krv(SK), gen. krvi;
up.luzh. kréj, gen. krwě; d.luzh kšew
(russian кров, крови - стр.сл. кръвь, кръве)

I think, there can be also the long kind of this l/r,
e.g. vĺča, vŕba - little wolf,wolfie/волк(уменш.), willow tree/ верба (ветла)
Except of polish language, I am not sure.

The soft syllabic L or the long soft syllabic L doesn't exist
in these normative languages.
As you can easy see, I'm only semi-expert.:D:mrgreen:

And how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenAnd how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??

Same as Uu. :)

Цитата: Евгений

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenAnd how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??

Same as Uu. :)

Depends on a dialect. :yes:

Цитата: Маринка

Цитата: Евгений

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenAnd how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??

Точно так же, как и Uu. :)

Взависимости от диалекта. :yes:

By default, the standard language is usually meant. 8)

Oh yeah, all written up here is absolutely true.:)
The polish letter ó has to be pronounced as "u".

The next unusual letters (all in Polish):
Though they had been discussed in this site, I leaved them to notice,
but now all together here again:
ę - nasal e, similar to french vin
ą - nasal o, similar to french bon
h - as "ch" in loch-ness
ć, ń, ś, ź - soft c, n, s, z (patalized) (I guess, this line is unnecessary)
The same as the last is pronouncion of "rz" and "sz" means "sh"(ш).

The soft signs can be written only upon these letters (c, n, s, z),
in the rest cases the patalisation is denoted by "i" (which then isn't pronounced).

I hope now is the description complete.
But as lady Mary says, everything depends on choosen dialect.8-)
I think, I am only quarter-expert.:D

Цитата: west expertlady Mary

:mrgreen::D:mrgreen:

Oh, thank you West Expert. I appreciate it.

I did not get what did you want me to do with Croatian, sorry...

Yes, you're totally right. We don't use ipsilon, Y. It's useless in our alphabet. And there is no softening in Croatian.
Example: Czech(tělo) Croatian(tijelo). Pronounciations [t'jelo<->tIELo]

In Croatian we have 7 vocals: A E I O U R IE(spelt as -ije- or -je-)
And lots of vocal and consonant changes sucha as sibilarization, palatalization, lossing of A or E etc etc........
For instance ČrnomerEc gen.sg. ČrnomeRCa
(peach)-breskva, gen.pl br``esÂkâ

4 accents ( á à â ``a) the R can be accented as well ŕ, `r, r^ etc... (the last one is not ř as in Czech, but normal R, long one)

As you have seen the R is vocal too so KRV, gen.krvi, VRT(garden), TRG(square), VRČ (cup) etc...

I've read once in some linguistic book that the Croatian is the most melodical and the richest (in grammar) language. Of course, between Slavic languages only. Melodic because of the richness of the vocals and 4 types of accents.

If you need something, just ask. I'll be glad to help you if I can.

Цитата: matkoIn Croatian we have 7 vocals: A E I O U R IE

In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really name a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it it must be in every case a vowel, mustn't it? [R̥]...

Цитата: matkoWe don't use ipsilon, Y.

Maybe, any üpsilon or ypsilon or upsilon or ÿpsilon? Sure, you in Croatia can name it with I, but in English...

Цитата: matkoI did not get what did you want me to do with Croatian, sorry...

:o I don't understand. :_1_17 What did I want, please?:dunno:
I guess, nothing, only to inform You as much as I can...

Цитата: matkoI've read once in some linguistic book that the Croatian is the most melodical and the richest (in grammar) language. Of course, between Slavic languages only. Melodic because of the richness of the vocals and 4 types of accents.

Paying attentione to these facts - yes, looking to another - may-be not, perharps. 8-)
Matko, or Bambino, when somebody really likes for example a patalisation,
he shall prefer those slavonic languages, where it is. :dunno:
Asking for an answer of (any) slav is not serious, because ev'rybody sees
his own language to be the best! :) And he is right.
So the less-more objective opinion can be shown by the other tribes.
As a minimum, I think, Croatian language is very pleasantly and soft for listening,
yes, it's quite enough beautifull.
If You will have ev'ry now and then any question, just simply ask for, too.
If I'll know, I'll be glad to tell You.:)

To lady Mary: Can we suppose the letter "r" sometimes to be a wovel?
May-be, yes, as a minimum, it's in the function like that. 8-)

Yes, it's true. R is now and then a vowel. I mentioned some cases so look it up.

L can be a vowel as well, but only in kajkavian dialect. For instance VLK (wolf), in standard Croatian it's VUK.

I repeat my question (and change my miss-printing:)).

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenIn this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenI repeat my question (and change my miss-printing:)).

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenIn this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?

Even I don't get it... Could you try to rephrase it once again, please?

Цитата: rawonamEven I

:D

Цитата: ЕвгенийVertaler van Teksten пишет:
In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?

In my opinion, syllabic l/r remain consonants anyway, why not? :dunno:

Цитата: Ян Ковач

Цитата: ЕвгенийVertaler van Teksten пишет:
In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?

In my opinion, syllabic l/r remain consonants anyway, why not? :dunno:

Syllabic sonants remain sonants, same as non-syllabic vowels remain vowels, what's the problem? :_1_12

Цитата: МаринкаSyllabic sonants remain sonants, same as non-syllabic vowels remain vowels, what's the problem?

It depends on whether you think that every syllable must contain a vowel. If so, the r in krk is a vowel. Otherwise, there is no problem.

I think that both in krk and in srpska there is a schwa before r.

Цитата: АлексI think that both in krk and in srpska there is a schwa before r.

Or after it. Actually, this is not a schwa, but a vocal on-/off-glide (or "irrational vowel"), which serves as a syllable peak. This is the reason, why /r/ is a syllabic phoneme in these words. 8-)

Yes, it's like a short [ə]
Is its position fixed?

Цитата: АлексYes, it's like a short [ə]
Is its position fixed?

If its position were fixed, it would not be a) an irrational vowel, but a simple short one, b) there would be no syllabic sonorant. 8-)

Reasonable. ::applause::
And how do the Serbs themselves pronounce it? For example, the word Србиjа?

Just like that SRBIJA. There is no schwa!!!

Same thing with KRK (the biggest island in Croatia), or KRV(blood), VRT (garden), VRĆ (cop) etc......

Try not to "pronounce" schwa

Can you please write in English here,  guys?? That's why i opened this subject in English because i cannot understand everything in Russian....

Požalujsta!

Ukrainian pronounciation is basically very similar to Belarusian, Russian and Polish. Ukrainian has a "dark" "L", which in written form is spelled like a "V". It turns dark at the end of a syllable, or before a consonant. The written equivalent of the letter "L" is not "dark". It's a bit softer. Ukrainian sound [y] is pronounced like in Polish, and not like in Russian. Also, [h] is pronounced like in Czech and Slovak, rather than like in Croatian/Serbian. The palatized [ś] and [ź] are pronounced like in Russian, and not like in Polish. All vowels in Ukrainian have the same length. Unlike in Polish and Belarusian, Ukrainian palatized consonants [Ď] and [Ť] do not change into [DŹ] and [Ć], respectively.

That seems to be it...

Цитата: west expert от октября 22, 2004, 10:43
Well, I have almost forgotten...
In the position before "y" there is no softening.

Writing Y or I, it is by the etymological reasons (as it has remained in russian),
there is no difference between pronouncion of them (I hope).
In south slavic languages it's easier (no ypsilon "y"), isn't it? :)

Y (ы) and I (и) are difference in russian pronounciation: e.g. [ikrA] and [ykrAn]. [Y] is more back vowel them  .

For Slovak, since I'm here in Slovakia and am studying the language:

Slovak has 9 vowels: a ä e i l o r u y. 8 of these can be long: á é í ĺ ó ŕ ú ý

Then there are the letters with mäkčen (caron): č ď ľ ň š ť ž. Ď and ť are soft d's and t's. Č, š and ž are ch, sh and zh respectively. Ľ and ň are the same as Spanish ll and ñ (or Portuguese lh and nh)

Ä is a special letter in Slavic languages, since it's sort of an umlaut, which is usually only found in Germanic languages. It's pronunced as a short e, like in 'bet'.

E, i and í but not é, y and ý cause softening. L and r can be syllabic and further more they can also be long: vŕba, hĺbka

i/y and í/ý are pronunced the same way.

Ehm, I think that's all. I'll post more, if I remember something.

What do you say about l and v?we don't speak so in russian?And what do you mean when you say "dark"?like in the word "сказал"?

сказал has a dark l, соль has a light palatalized l

Ah, light-мягкий /смягченный,dark-твердый,in this meaning?
Then why do they say that there are dark and light consonants in english? Yes,they are- but like allophons!

And it's like the same for people! Somebody speaks "darker",somebody "lighter"- and even a person may once to say lighter,another time- darker!