Лингвофорум

caique < kayık

Цитата: Karakurt от марта 25, 2011, 19:32
How do you derive ural from ür?

I do not derive it from the modern language's positions.

How do you derive ural from ür?

Цитата: autolyk от марта 25, 2011, 17:54

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 17:22
There's one simple argument: for a word to originate from Mansi, it MUST exist in that language more than in a form of a mechanical comination of two roots against the grammatical rules of that language, doesn't it?

They do exist. Ūr means "a hill, a mountain". A word al now is not used independently, but the following word compositions  show its meaning: ala - roof, algal - upwards, alpīsov - man's skin, — "an upper part".

Bashkir:
Ural "crankle, curve, bend"
Bashkir оr~ur~ür~ör "гора, высокое место"
These two are the most commonly cited derivations.
Let me remind that the use of the name among Bashkirs the amply attested, including mythology, folklore, local place names.
Choose which of the two explanations you like 

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 17:22
There's one simple argument: for a word to originate from Mansi, it MUST exist in that language more than in a form of a mechanical comination of two roots against the grammatical rules of that language, doesn't it?

They do exist. Ūr means "a hill, a mountain". A word al now is not used independently, but the following word compositions  show its meaning: ala - roof, algal - upwards, alpīsov - man's skin, — "an upper part".

Цитата: autolyk от марта 25, 2011, 17:00

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 10:19
Mansi never actually called the mountains "Ural"

It is really true, but borrowing the word does not always accompany borrowing the meaning. Cf: a word "kangaroo" derives from one of Pama-Nyungan languages, but it means a "kind of animal" only in English and some other European languages.

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 12:33
Цитата: Karakurt от Сегодня в 12:21

ЦитироватьWhat's the etymology then?

Oblique. Could be early Turkic or pre-Turkic

I do not assert Vasmer's etymology is the most perfect, but a certain etymology is better oblique one (IMHO).

well, two or three derivations from Bashkir are readily available, no worse than the Mansi

There's one simple argument: for a word to originate from Mansi, it MUST exist in that language more than in a form of a mechanical comination of two roots against the grammatical rules of that language, doesn't it?

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 10:19
Mansi never actually called the mountains "Ural"

It is really true, but borrowing the word does not always accompany borrowing the meaning. Cf: a word "kangaroo" derives from one of Pama-Nyungan languages, but it means a "kind of animal" only in English and some other European languages.

Цитата: Borovik от марта 25, 2011, 12:33
Цитата: Karakurt от Сегодня в 12:21

ЦитироватьWhat's the etymology then?

Oblique. Could be early Turkic or pre-Turkic

I do not assert Vasmer's etymology is the most perfect, but a certain etymology is better oblique one (IMHO). 

Цитата: Karakurt от марта 25, 2011, 11:21
What's the etymology then?

Oblique. Could be early Turkic or pre-Turkic

What's the etymology then?

Цитата: autolyk от марта 24, 2011, 21:45
Vasmer disagrees with you: the mountains name derives from Vogul ūr-al "top of the hill".

I am aware of that derivation attempt. The problem with it is that such appelation of the mountains has never been attested among Mansi (the modern name of Vogul) - Mansi never actually called the mountains "Ural" until late 19th century when it was borrowed from Russian. Nor has it been for any other native Uralic ethnic group (Udmurt, Komi, Khanty, Nenets) except Bashkirs.

If you look into the Bashkir use of that name, it is extensive and well supported locally: Ural-batyr is a Bashkir epic tale; Ural-taw is a name of a specific mountain range in the Southern Urals. Let me remind that Bashkirs are a native Turkic ethic group indigenous to the Southern Urals.

A quick look into the early (16-17th century) use of that name in Russian also shows that it was first used for the Southern part of the mountains, later expanging to the entire mountain range.