Лингвофорум

Уважаемые исследователи, добрый день!

Нужна консультация специалиста по днепровско-окским языкам, языкам голяди, племен мокшинской культуры. Именно надо определить относится ли к этим языкам название населенного пункта в верхней Оке. Мы работает над книгой по значению названия. Интересна любая подсказка или наводка. Укажем Вас в соавторах. Пишите пожалуйста на почту vetkin@mail.ru
Заранее Вам спасибо.

A quick translation of the summary in Russian I present in my first post.

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Abundance of names for varieties of lakes, swamps and forests in the lexicon of common Slavic language speaks for itself . The presence of names for various animals and birds living in the forests and swamps , trees and plants of  the temperate forest-steppe zone , fish typical of this area , and at the same time the lack of common Slavic names of the specific features of the mountains, steppes and sea, provides unambiguous material for inferences about the ancestral home of the Slavs ... The ancestral home of the Slavs , at least in the last century of their history [i.e. common Slavic ancestral home of the last century] was in  forest
band of the temperate forest zone rich in lakes and swamps located away from the the sea , mountains and steppes. However, our assumption is not definite ... The temperate zone area with lakes and marshes located in the area from the middle reaches of the Elbe and the Oder in the west to Desna River [North-eastern Ukraine, western Russia] in the east. Such a vast Slavic ancestral home could not be at least in the early stages of the development of a common Slavic language, because the separation of the language from the  Indo-European dialects , and its development as a single coherent system requires close and constant communication of its carriers for a lengthy time. (Filin 1962 pp. 122-123)

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Polish botanist Rostafinski (1908) stated whom other scholars reiterated over the years that Slavs didn't know beech, larch and fir-trees. Balts didn't know beech, larch, fir and yew trees. The eastern border of the area in which Beech trees grow runs between modern Kaliningrad in the north and Odessa [Ukraine] in the south. Further east of the border line Beech trees don't grow.

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Archaeologist professor Werner (1971)  noted that the appearance and structure of the early Slavic archaeological cultures are closest to the archaeological cultures of forest zones of eastern Europe. The early Slavic archaeological cultures were closest to stroked-ceramic archaeological culture [eastern Lithuania & Belarus], Dniepr-Dvinsk archaeological culture [northern Belarus and surrounding regions] and Tushimlinsk archaeological cultures [Smolensk  region, western Russia]. As in early Slavic archaeological cultures, the aforementioned cultures feature roughly molded jar-shaped pots and the objects made of metal were rare in the settlements.  In everyday life, people of the forest zone [upper Dniepr], as Slavs, were clearly unpretentious  which highlights the similarity in the mentality of the two group, while being different from other peoples surrounding them.

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Russian archaeologist Shyukin (1997)  and others stated that people of Stroked-ceramic, Dniepr-Dvinsk and Tushimlinsk archaeological cultures were some other Balts differing in psychologically and culture from their western relatives [who were Balts of  Lithuania represented by eastern Lithuanian Kurgan culture]. Therefore, there's a tendency to name these people the Dniepr Balts , who were a special group. Could that group be the Balto-Slavic rather than Baltic - Shuykin asks?
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In relation to the toponyms of  the upper Dniepr basin [the settlement of the Dniepr Balts] porfessor of compariative linguistics H. Birnbaum and others proposed a hypothesis that the Dniepr Balts were the Balto-Slavic group speaking a transitional dialect.

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I presented a question in my first post : could the Dniepr Balts speak a transitional dialect between Baltic and early Slavic? In other words, could people of those forest cultures in the basin of upper Dniepr River be the hypothetical Balto-Slavs ? It'd make a lot of sense for the to be in explaining the origins of early Slavic speakers given all evidence available. People of the forest cultures could migrate south along the Dniepr and Desna in Ukraine mixing with people of the steppes developing a separate language and cultures migrating west and south crossing Danube with Bulgar and Avars later.

Цитата: zalktis от февраля  6, 2014, 02:22
Further to the East of Kaliningrad were first of all the other Balts, so why not take their definite or predicted Southeastern border as a point of reference for where the Slavic homeland could be located at rather than Kaliningrad which has always been almost the Westernmost outpost of Balts? It's the same as saying that Poland is located "to the South of Estonia".

I've quoted  several scholars  in my first post from Russia, Poland and Germany outlining the reasons why searching for home of early common Slavic language in  swampy forest regions further east of the reference line Kaliningrad-Odessa.The subject of the discussion is the language of Dniepr Balts' dwelling the the basins of upper Dniepr and Oka Rivers in early and middle iron age periods. Don't confuse them with the eastern Balts.

Цитата: procyone от февраля  6, 2014, 01:06

Цитата: zalktis от февраля  6, 2014, 00:40

Цитата: procyone от февраля  6, 2014, 00:12Тогда вот прародина славян – болотно-лесная зона к востоку от линии Калининград – Одесса. Археологические культуры близкие раннеславянским, и родственные славянам балтийские народы по соседству.

What does Kaliningrad have to do with any of this? East Balts have never bordered it.

Did I mention the east Balts bordered the Kaliningrad region anywhere? No, I didn't. Further to the east of Kaliningrad-Odessa border line was a proposed region in which common early Slavic language appeared.

Further to the East of Kaliningrad were first of all the other Balts, so why not take their definite or predicted Southeastern border as a point of reference for where the Slavic homeland could be located at rather than Kaliningrad which has always been almost the Westernmost outpost of Balts? It's the same as saying that Poland is located "to the South of Estonia".

Цитата: zalktis от февраля  6, 2014, 00:40

Цитата: procyone от февраля  6, 2014, 00:12Тогда вот прародина славян – болотно-лесная зона к востоку от линии Калининград – Одесса. Археологические культуры близкие раннеславянским, и родственные славянам балтийские народы по соседству.

What does Kaliningrad have to do with any of this? East Balts have never bordered it.

Did I mention the east Balts bordered the Kaliningrad region anywhere? No, I didn't. Further to the east of Kaliningrad-Odessa border line was a proposed region in which common early Slavic language appeared.

В пользу ограничения обширной зоны "болотно-лесной" топонимики лишь ее восточной частью свидетельствует весьма весомый тезис, выдвинутый еще в 1908 году польским
ботаником Ю.Ростафинским и в последствии неоднократно повторяющийся: Балты не знали ни бука, ни лиственницы, ни пихты, ни тисса, поскольку название его перенесли на крушину. Славяне общеиндоевропейское название тисса перенесли на вербу, иву и не знали лиственницы, пихты и бука. Таким образом, анализ названий деревьев указывает на среднюю Россию, как родину семьи балто-славянских народов" (Rostafinski 1908: 10).

Если выводы Ю.Ростафинского верны, то отсюда могло вытекать следующее: поскольку восточная граница распространения бука приходится приблизительно на линию Калининград-Одесса (Филин 1962: 22), то все процессы образования общеславянского языка должны были бы происходить к востоку от этой условной линии, которая, в зависимости от экологических условий, естественно, могла колебаться, но вряд ли лишком решительно. Конкретных же палинологических или других данных противниками "букового аргумента" не приводится.

Цитата: procyone от февраля  6, 2014, 00:12Тогда вот прародина славян – болотно-лесная зона к востоку от линии Калининград – Одесса. Археологические культуры близкие раннеславянским, и родственные славянам балтийские народы по соседству.

What does Kaliningrad have to do with any of this? East Balts have never bordered it.

Днепровско-окский язык — один или несколько балтийских языков, реконструируемых по данным топонимики. Вопрос о денпровско-окском языке ниже.

Археолога М. Щукина пишет в статье "Рождение славян"

Лингвист Ф.П Филин пишет о родине славян с точки зрения лингвистики

В пользу ограничения обширной зоны "болотно-лесной" топонимики лишь ее восточной частью свидетельствует весьма весомый тезис, выдвинутый еще в 1908 году польским
ботаником Ю.Ростафинским и в последствии неоднократно повторяющийся:

Профессор Вернер писал, что раннеславянские археологические культуры ближе всегo к тушмлинской и днепро-двинской археологической культуре. Эти две археологические культуры – ареал днепровских балтов , которые отличались от балтов с территории Литвы и Латгалии.


Мог ли язык днепровских и окских балтов являться промежуточным звеном балтских и раннеславянских языков?. Тогда вот прародина славян – болотно-лесная зона к востоку от линии Калининград – Одесса. Археологические культуры близкие раннеславянским, и родственные славянам балтийские народы по соседству.