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Автор tetramur
- июня 9, 2022, 09:15Цитата: Grotlon от июня 8, 2022, 01:43Омонимов в тохарских я не знаю.Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 10:22Лихо они. Это же сколько омонимов должно было появится?
it is a special case, as it has merged all three of the PIE dorsal series (originally nine separate consonants) into a single phoneme, *k
Автор i486
- июня 8, 2022, 01:43Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 10:22Лихо они. Это же сколько омонимов должно было появится?
it is a special case, as it has merged all three of the PIE dorsal series (originally nine separate consonants) into a single phoneme, *k
Автор !!!!
- июля 6, 2020, 12:12«While still maintaining a small group of ardent followers (particularly in Leiden), the
GT has lost much of its support today. There are many reasons for this. To begin with,
since Jakobson's famous claim, scholars have documented languages with stop systems
identical or nearly identical to the classical PIE system, such as Kelabit in northern
Borneo (Blust 2006). Second, if ejectives had been phonemes in PIE, then it is quite
surprising that no IE language has inherited them, as they tend to be quite stable dia-
chronically. Third, there are certain loan words present in Armenian (arcat' 'silver' <
Iran. *ardzata- ) and Germanic (*rīk- 'king' < Celt. *rīg- < *PIE h3rēg̑-) that demand
consonant shifts from voiced to voiceless, which are not possible in the GT framework.
Lastly, perhaps the strongest argument against the GT comes from Armenian, where in
certain dialects initial-syllable vowels are fronted after inherited voiced aspirates by
Adjarian's Law: Kar-evan ben 'speech' (< *bh
an-), Karabagh telar (< *dh
al-) but Kar-
evan tun 'house' (< *dom-), Karabagh kov 'cow' (< *gwou̯-). As Garrett (1998) convin-
cingly shows, fronting makes no sense if these segments had been simple voiced stops
inherited from PIE voiced aspirates, but does if they were breathy-voiced, triggered by
the spread of the feature [+ATR]. (Weitenberg [this handbook] takes Adjarian's Law to
have been triggered by the lateral /l/ and voiced fricatives in addition to inherited voiced
aspirates. If this is indeed the case, then Garrett's analysis loses its explanatory power.
However, it is true that the most widely cited examples of Adjarian's Law all involve pre-
ceding voiced stops and *j, which according to Garrett had become a voiced */ɦ/ before
the time of the fronting.)
But demonstrating the GT to be false does not entail that the classical reconstruction
of the PIE stops is true for all periods of the proto-language, especially for early PIE.
For how does one explain the rarity of */b/, the absence of */D(e)D/ sequences, or, more
generally, the existence of such a typologically odd system in the classical reconstruc-
tion? » Из работы лингвиста Берга 2015 года. Выходит доказательства зыбкие как у сторонников GT, так и у противников. Если арм. arcat' и герм. *rik действительно заимствования из иранского и кельтского, то это весомый аргумент против GT, но, насколько понятно при подробном ознакомлении с этимологией этих слов, их статус заимствования далеко не однозначен.
GT has lost much of its support today. There are many reasons for this. To begin with,
since Jakobson's famous claim, scholars have documented languages with stop systems
identical or nearly identical to the classical PIE system, such as Kelabit in northern
Borneo (Blust 2006). Second, if ejectives had been phonemes in PIE, then it is quite
surprising that no IE language has inherited them, as they tend to be quite stable dia-
chronically. Third, there are certain loan words present in Armenian (arcat' 'silver' <
Iran. *ardzata- ) and Germanic (*rīk- 'king' < Celt. *rīg- < *PIE h3rēg̑-) that demand
consonant shifts from voiced to voiceless, which are not possible in the GT framework.
Lastly, perhaps the strongest argument against the GT comes from Armenian, where in
certain dialects initial-syllable vowels are fronted after inherited voiced aspirates by
Adjarian's Law: Kar-evan ben 'speech' (< *bh
an-), Karabagh telar (< *dh
al-) but Kar-
evan tun 'house' (< *dom-), Karabagh kov 'cow' (< *gwou̯-). As Garrett (1998) convin-
cingly shows, fronting makes no sense if these segments had been simple voiced stops
inherited from PIE voiced aspirates, but does if they were breathy-voiced, triggered by
the spread of the feature [+ATR]. (Weitenberg [this handbook] takes Adjarian's Law to
have been triggered by the lateral /l/ and voiced fricatives in addition to inherited voiced
aspirates. If this is indeed the case, then Garrett's analysis loses its explanatory power.
However, it is true that the most widely cited examples of Adjarian's Law all involve pre-
ceding voiced stops and *j, which according to Garrett had become a voiced */ɦ/ before
the time of the fronting.)
But demonstrating the GT to be false does not entail that the classical reconstruction
of the PIE stops is true for all periods of the proto-language, especially for early PIE.
For how does one explain the rarity of */b/, the absence of */D(e)D/ sequences, or, more
generally, the existence of such a typologically odd system in the classical reconstruc-
tion? » Из работы лингвиста Берга 2015 года. Выходит доказательства зыбкие как у сторонников GT, так и у противников. Если арм. arcat' и герм. *rik действительно заимствования из иранского и кельтского, то это весомый аргумент против GT, но, насколько понятно при подробном ознакомлении с этимологией этих слов, их статус заимствования далеко не однозначен.
Автор tetramur
- марта 18, 2019, 05:21Цитата: Karakurt от марта 18, 2019, 05:04А теперь представьте: вместо простого велярного остался палатализованный, который затем перешёл в /ч/. Нет велярных совсем, как вы и просили.
9 в 1?? За что?
Автор Karakurt
- марта 18, 2019, 05:049 в 1?? За что?
Автор tetramur
- марта 17, 2019, 10:22Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 08:20Ещё один неверный жест - и остались бы тохарские вовсе без велярных.Цитировать
While Tocharian is generally regarded as a centum language, it is a special case, as it has merged all three of the PIE dorsal series (originally nine separate consonants) into a single phoneme, *k.
Автор Wolliger Mensch
- марта 17, 2019, 10:15Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 08:11
Странно...ЦитироватьThere are various modern historians and linguists believe that modern Albanian language might have descended from a southern Illyrian dialect whereas an alternative hypothesis holds that Albanian was descended from Thracian. Not enough is known of the ancient language to completely prove or disprove either hypothesis (see Origin of Albanians).
Нет, иллирийское происхождение невероятно: албанцы на побережье Адриатики — пришельцы. У них нет исконной рыболовной терминологии, а также историко-фонетические особенности показывают общее развитие с румынскими диалектами, а не с далматинскими.
Автор Lodur
- марта 17, 2019, 08:21Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 08:06Ну, вы спросили.Цитата: Lodur от марта 17, 2019, 07:51Ясно же. Декем и сатем, как балто-славянские.Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 07:45Какие я ещё не перечислил?Индо-иранские забыли.
Автор tetramur
- марта 17, 2019, 08:20Цитировать
While Tocharian is generally regarded as a centum language, it is a special case, as it has merged all three of the PIE dorsal series (originally nine separate consonants) into a single phoneme, *k.
Автор tetramur
- марта 17, 2019, 08:11Цитата: Wolliger Mensch от марта 17, 2019, 07:55Странно...Цитата: tetramur от марта 17, 2019, 07:45Албанцы раньше жили на востоке полуострова, какие иллирийцы?
Албанский - декем, про кентум-сатем спорно (qind - заимствовано из латыни, имеются рефлексы группы сатем, хотя его относят по одной теории к потомкам одного из иллирийских языков, которые кентум)
ЦитироватьThere are various modern historians and linguists believe that modern Albanian language might have descended from a southern Illyrian dialect whereas an alternative hypothesis holds that Albanian was descended from Thracian. Not enough is known of the ancient language to completely prove or disprove either hypothesis (see Origin of Albanians).