Произношение t как [ч] в английском

[regn]

well... I would urge you to take a look at the RUSSIAN expressions used here on the forum. They're fairy often not scientific at all. Everyone seems to be totally satisfied with it.

Again - I don't see any problem with using "hit the sack" here in the thread or with it being used by a person who has an accent.

Ничего "резкого" не вижу. Я слушал запись как СОВОКУПНОСТЬ, и тот факт, что некоторые слово абсолютно перфектны - сути не меняют, так как на каждое "перфектное" слово есть слово с ярковыраженным ненативным акцентом, поэтому принять целостность за нативного не представляется возможным

Roman, I don't know... Maybe you've got phenomenal ears  and can hear what others can't. I asked two people born and raised in the state of New York. They told me that Dmitriy's pronunciation is very good. His accent is stronger than mine, they told me. But it's not bad at all. And I think it would take him two to three years at maximum to reduce it to zero STARTING AT the current level.

Как это относится к делу? Между "немного закрытой" [æ] и  [э] - дистанция огромного размера.

Again :: before nasals "a" and "e" merge in most American dialects.

You know, maybe, my hearing is bad, but I didn't hear a pure Russian retracted "э"

[Rōmānus]

But it's not bad at all.

Где я сказал, что он bad  Наоборот, я сказал, что виден огромный прогресс по сравнению с тем как обычно говорят русски  Товарищи, я не собираюсь с вами препираться, просто сегодня заглянул сюда - а вы уже на 16 стр нафлудили. Если у вас тут на самом деле не дискуссия, а "сообщество взаимного обожания" - то размещайте такие темы в Просто общение с подзаголовком "Прайвит клаб, ноу нигроуз инвайтид" - и всё будет ясно. А то сейчас это всё в теме Английский язык, и наивные, вроде меня, могут лохануться и подумать, что вам интересно мнение человека со стороны  Но ведь вам же неинтересно, не так ли? Куда завлекательно-заманчивее, когда "за что же хвалит петуха? за то, что хвалит он петушку" 

На сём и откланиваюсь

[iopq]

Yes, this is the place and the time to use "hit the sack". The audience and the media are perfect for this particular expression.

[Loafer]

Уважаемый Roman:

Спасибо огромное за Ваши комментарии! Но Вы сильно ошибаетесь. Больше всего Вы ошибаетесь в том, что пытаетесь сказать, что я "что-то из себя пытаюсь состроить". Мне 41 год и я действительно жил в Америке 8 лет с "гаком".  "Изображать" мне из себя уже ничего не надо. Аккуратность произнесения речи коммерческого характера важна для меня, потому что при грубых ошибках я бы подрывал себе репутацию "автора курса по Американскому произношению для взрослых русскоговорящих". Я ни разу не пытался выдать себя за человека, который говорит  на одном из Северо-Американских диалектов без акцента вообще. Нет такой задачи. То как записано - это то, как я всегда говорю по-английски.

Ваш же комментарий (например "adult") сразу же показал, что Вас в ЭТОМ вопросе нельзя воспринимать серьёзно. Т.е. Вы просто понятия не имеете об английском в Северной Америке. Один только ЭТОТ комментарий Вас 100% дискредитирует, потому что он был бы эквивалентен утверждению, что, например, в русском нет термина "проджект менеджмент".

Другие Ваши замечания имеют ту же "глубину", так сказать. Например, "аспирация"...
Вы никогда не задумывались зачем на микрофонах сеточки, паролон и прочие дифьюзоры звука? То что вы об американских ДИАЛЕКТАХ и МАНЕРАХ РЕЧИ понятия не имеете, это, увы, из Вашего сообщения ТОЖЕ сразу очевидно.

Так что - НЕ ОБИЖАЙТЕСЬ.

[Loafer]

OK, I tried to jazz it up a bit, make trendier, with music. But it's still fairly serious and boring 10 minutes of babbling.   Not sure about the music, though. What do you think? (PLEASE, people WITH ACTUAL knowledge of North American English dialects ONLY )

It seems that Miscrosoft Moviemaker distorts sound somehow. Maybe my settings are incorrect. Otherwise - I suck.

Generally, back in May I was shocked how bad I actually sounded in Russian when recorded. Now I'm undergoing the same shock with English. All those mistakes, which you wouldn't normally pay attention to...  Jeez, I need a speech therapist. The problem is - you don't really hear yourself.

I remember me being 6 and getting speech therapy about my Russian trills. I thought I was perfect and couldn't guess what the heck my parents, grandma and the therapist wanted from me! I couldn't tell the difference. Seriously.

Same with my son, though. He once wrote "ЛЮБЛЮ" as "РБУ". Just think about it. How DEMONSTRATIVE this spelling really is. Mind boggling!

Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoESQB6AR7M

[iopq]

"live abroad as a kit"
but I liked "for ya" very fluently pronounced

but I didn't like that you wrote aspiration in one of your stops at the end of the word or in the word cheap
so some contents of the slides I might disagree with, but they're 99% correct
also you said "an effort" where I would say "effort" without the article but I don't really know if that's a huge difference since Russians tend to never say the article at all

but I like how it sounds, you can tell that you know the phonemes of the English language
maybe you're off here and there but it's almost like you get better with each video that you make
the music was very low so I can't quite comment on it

[Loafer]

"live abroad as a kit"

Hum...Interesting issue... When I hear the MP3 file it sounds fairly voiced, even though not "national broadcast" quality. If I "force it", my P's start sounding way too "popped". If I protract the vowel before it (as I recommend) the accent gets funnier when recorded. Catch 22. I have a very strong suspicion that in order to make it "great" I would have to invest in these three things:

1. much better microphone: sensitive and SEPARATED from the headset. It should be at least a good foot AWAY from one's mouth. Also, it helps to pronounce P's as "kind of" B's.
2. Microsoft Moviemaker sucks. I will try Pinnacle or something.
3. PC with 4GB of operating memory.

I wonder what this guy is using: //www.itotd.com
(He's doing that for money, he's an American from Pennsylvania, lived in California, now lives in Paris. He's articulation is great, at least to my humble liking.)

I also listened to a bunch of American pronunciation audio courses and the quality really varied. (I wonder why. Cheap recording equipment?) And it's BAD. Because all those harmonics do matter in pronunciation courses. It teaches me that "speech evaluation" based on recording is not a great idea without good equipment.

In the course, I have the pronunciation of 1,017 most common American words, which I insist on memorization of. Whenever I pronounce them, it sounds decent. When I listen to all of them in a row - some sound shitty. I try to rerecord. It's a lot of work. So, I guess I will stop at some point of brushing and leave it as is. Otherwise it's going to be way too expensive. I need to think about it.

Next issue - Cheap.

I thought the "rule" should be: "aspirated at the beginning of a stressed syllable, no aspiration at the beginning of an unstressed one."  This way: "Cheese" - aspirated, "Teacher" - not. Is that incorrect?  (iopq, while commenting on this one, please,   try to be "pseudo pan-American", not just California-English.)

Next issue: "aspiration at the end".

"What?" with aspiration, which you often here in the movies is bull, mannerism, like Russian "/шо/?" или "/что/?", вместо "/што/?". For some reason I came up with a dubious idea that there are THREE degrees of aspiration in American English:

1. "The strongest": Tall
2. "Minor":   Better (when not flap)
3. "None"     Bought.

I feel it's mostly physiological.  This way after nasals and p's and k's at the very end of a coda the final sound should be slightly aspirated, like:  "attempt, pant, bank, stopped, act, kink, point etc"

No? I'm almost sure about it. By the way, /n/ appears to sound like /m/ before /p/. Ever noticed?


Next issue: "Effort."
Hum. Sounds like either way is fine. Your favorite (mine too) Webster supports that. The article adds a flavor of "some". I always say to people: "Know WHAT exactly you are DOING by adding or removing articles in BE in CHARGE, like Shakespeare, whose certain thoughts 'spanieled' him."

Yet I noticed a more "serious" grammar slip of the tongue: "result vary". I have a lot of those in my Russian-language recordings, though. Well, my verdict would be like this: "Because Loafer2008 is not applying for the Tom Brokow's position, because he is not an American speech therapist for actors and broadcasters, because most of us do make marginal mistakes in our daily speech, even formal, and, finally, because most Russian pre-intermediate-through-advance ESL learning clients are not going to notice even much more flagrant mistakes, and would benefit from the course tremendously, I OFFICIALLY EXONERATE Loafer2008 from all minor grammar mistakes he has made in his Speech Sample Demo Video."

How does that sound?

iopq, I'm trying to neutralize some "iffy" issues in the course's material, but there's very important aspect of it:

Unlike a regular phonology course, it's not DESCRIPTIVE - it's PROSCRIPTIVE in a crooked, "speech-therapy" way. It's like if you want to get onto some level, you have to exaggerate certain things first and use "habit forming" tricks. Like: "ттттРРРРР-акто-ттттРРРР" first and then "тРактоР". I try to HELP Russian people, to TEACH them, and not "demonstrate" them unattainable heights which I occasionally (100% - 99% = 1%) "aspire" to myself. It don't matter what I know and can, what YOU know and can, or regn knows and can - I'm talking some serious EDUCATIONAL process here for OTHER people. What MATTERS is how much THEY KNOW and CAN after the course. Getting a better job for a Russian immigrant in America, or striking a better deal through more skillful negotiations for a Russian-speaking businessman would be the result I want to achieve. One would have to THINK as an EDUCATOR in order to be successful in this field. Importantly - an educator of "ADULTS".  It's VERY easy to teach high-school kids or university age folks - studying is all the can do.

With adults, on thing to many and you lose your audience. In my case it means, alas, PAYING CLIENTS. Somebody like regn would benefit from a course where there is 100% precision, reference to dialects etc. But I wouldn't dare to create a course for people like regn -- I lack necessary knowledge and skills and, importantly, there's no MASS MARKET of such people.

Look, I have a text book of English grammar... It has 1,600 (sic!) pages. And I hate this book! (I'm afraid of it, respect it, yet - yes - hate it for that and it's volume in particular.)  Getting my drift?

What do you think?

[regn]

Loafer, just noticed a mistake. Kind of rough: accented - [`æksəntəd], not [ək`sεntəd].

I can also constantly hear some lowering of your [ɪ]'s. "hindering" sounds almost like [`hεnd-]



About aspiration.

Here in New York, lots of people do not make their final stops glottal.  I.e. they sound like normal p's, t's, d's etc.. In this case voiceless stops are perfectly aspirated in case they follow a stressed vowel (I would even say, any historically long vowel). After "s" stops are never aspirated. Here's my scheme:
1) "teacher" [`tʰiːtʃə˞]
2) "stamina" [`stæːmɪnə]
3) "city" [`sɪɾiˑ] / [`sɪtʰiˑ] (before a tense vowel)
4) "atom" [`æːɾəm] / [`æːtəm] (it is very slightly aspirated here)
5) "pot" [pʰɑtʰ] (in Iopq's pronunciation it will be a glottal stop at the end)
6) "merit" [`mɛɹɪt] (no aspiration after a lax unstressed vowel)

[Loafer]

Regn:

"Loafer, just noticed a mistake. Kind of rough: accented - [`æksəntəd], not [ək`sεntəd]."

Oh, no, regn. Either version is 100% correct, mine including. It's pretty much a matter of taste.

(By the way, checking with a pussytionary, like WEBSTER.com, would help. They are a bit on a conservative side, but mostly correct, though. )


"I can also constantly hear some lowering of your [ɪ]'s. "hindering" sounds almost like [`hεnd-]"

Bingo! Got that silly HABIT in order to DEMONSTRATE the difference between /i/ and /I/    I got a "Finnsih" accent   Also, MP3 transformation does a really bad service here, aggravating the effect. I need to file a work comp claim. 


About aspiration.

Here in New York,...

... and EVERYWHERE in the USA and Canada. "What?!", as I explained, is a silly mannerism.  But think about "Kent", "exempt", "can't", "act", etc...


THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH!

[Loafer]

By the way, regn, PAY attention:

it's /'æk-"sɛ̃ntʰ/ in North America, not /'æk-sə̃ntʰ/ as in RP.

Many Russians overlook the old-fashioned second stress (=accurate sounding) in American English.

Sorry if you knew - no offense. Just thought you may benefit from the observation.

[regn]

.. and EVERYWHERE in the USA

No, not everywhere. Iopq pronounces his final t, k, and p with a glottal stop... People don't do it here. I was talking about glottal stops only.

Oh, no, regn. Either version is 100% correct, mine including. It's pretty much a matter of taste.

Oh... I guess you're right. Here people only say Accented, but all my dictionaries suggest accEnted. I should listen to my native speakers a little less sometimes. I trust them way too much

Thanks for correction

[regn]

it's /'æk-"sɛ̃ntʰ/ in North America, not /'æk-sə̃ntʰ/ as in RP.

It's funny because I never heard it stressed on the second syllable in New York

[Loafer]

Actually,  /'æ:ək-sə̃ntʰ/ would pass for some southern drawl, I guess.

[Loafer]

"I can also constantly hear some lowering of your [ɪ]'s. "hindering" sounds almost like [`hεnd-]"




Just thought about it again, you know? It's funny. And you ARE right.  I call it "a 5-year-plus exile in Georgia (like Tbilisi) revolt effect"

[Loafer]

Hey, a sliver lining would be that I have a VERY good Moscow accent now. Sans minor mistakes in Russian grammar and occasional slips of the tongue and trips, of course


"Russian style" /i/ instead of /I/ shall find no purchase in my accent!

[iopq]

I think it's mostly microphone quality that matters as long as you don't compress the audio too much. Accented vs. accEnted... both are fine

Note that New York has a particular accent because it had a steady influx of English speakers from Britain, so it shares some phonological qualities with British English. A lot of people in New York speak a non-rhotic dialect.

[Loafer]

Yep. In one of his archived articles Joe Kissel talks about just that issue:

"... fancy microphone....   closet, which walls and ceilings are clad with blankets"

Hum. Makeshift recording studio. But what a difference!

It's very difficult (for me) to control recording levels. If' it's very high - everything is heard, including - pardon me - saliva in my mouth. If I filter sound to my liking, high frequencies will be often lost and it will become hard to tell "b" from "p"...

[temp1ar]

По-моему, в тему сейчас запостил:

http://ru.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa-hc6vo_5o

[Loafer]

OK.  Чуть-чуть подправили мисси-писси:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjcftah5Hc

[temp1ar]

"в пятнах я имею в виду"

жжёте!

[iopq]

"в пятнах я имею в виду"

жжёте!

ROFL

[Aleksey]

У меня t похоже на мутанта слепленного из ч и ц

[Драгана]

У меня t похоже на мутанта слепленного из ч и ц

Это типа т/т', что ли? ну англ. t просто альвеолярное, а такой мутант ч и ц - это как чуть смягченное, что ли?

[Aleksey]

ну сомневаюсь что это t/t' больше похоже на [t]č (твердое ч, с легким наличием ц)
я лох по фонетике так что по-лучше обьяснить не могу

[Andrei N]

А у нас учительница произносила "to" как "чу". С чем это связано?