English humor

[RawonaM]

По-моему о фонетическом значении th там вообще речь не идет - автор говорит о замене букв, а о фонемах и не заикается (по крайней мере применительно к th).

То, о чем говорит автор, - это одно, а какие выводы из этого можно сделать - это другое. Видно сразу, что он хочет приблизить письменность к произношению, отсюда можно и судить о его представлении (сознательном или несознательном) о фонемах англ. языка.

Так просветите ж неученых, будьте добры!

Так я же хочу, чтобы лингвисты ответили, какой вариант они считают правильнее... Дело в том, что я ответил, по мнению составителей экзамена, неправильно. Потом были долгие "выяснения отношений", потому что я с ними был несогласен и несогласен до сих пор.

[Digamma]

По-моему о фонетическом значении th там вообще речь не идет - автор говорит о замене букв, а о фонемах и не заикается (по крайней мере применительно к th).

То, о чем говорит автор, - это одно, а какие выводы из этого можно сделать - это другое. Видно сразу, что он хочет приблизить письменность к произношению

Вот как раз выводы можно делать, если полагать, что заменами th -> z он именно хочет приблизить письменность к произношению. (vords, smil???)

Если автор считает z звонким аналогом s (что совершенно не очевидно, т.к. он не совсем последователен: step, pleas, ziz, ezi), то автор не различает глухой и звонкий th (ziz, zi) и считает их лишь вариантами [z] (zer, ezi).
Тем не менее, я думаю, что эта версия неверна: мне кажется, что автор пытается передать [z] и как s, а [ð] и [θ] как z - если это так, то он несомненно считает th отдельным звуком, и, вероятно, различает их, т.к. старается сознательно унифицировать написание (не произношение!: Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza - речь идет о письме, насколько я понимаю).

[ginkgo]

Which of the following statements is true:
(Первые два сразу отбросил, а над двумя долго думал)
c. The author of this joke does not consider 'th' a phoneme.
d. The author of this joke does not distinguish between voiced and voiceless 'th'.

На мой взгляд,  вопрос и правда поставлен не очень  корректно. Автор шутки весьма непоследователен в своих заменах... Вряд ли можно говорить тут о попытке приблизить письменность к произношению, слишком много обратных примеров. В сущности он просто переносит непоследовательность английского спеллинга в свою новую систему.
Кроме того, непонятно, о какой фонеме  в вопросе идет речь, звонкой, или глухой, или обеих...

Но если бы мне пришлось решать такую задачу, то спонтанно я бы, пожалуй, выбрала ответ d.
Автор однозначно не различает (на письме) глухое и звонкое th (ze, fifz), механически заменяя все буквосочетания th на z независимо от их произношения. Впрочем, они и в regular spelling не различаются.
А вот однозначно сказать на основе текста, считает ли он th фонемой - нельзя, по-моему.  Вроде как не считает (раз не различает th, z и s)... Но можно также предположить, что он считает их фонемами, но не считает нужным отображать все фонемы на письме.

Интересно, каковы были ответы на самом деле

[RawonaM]

I'm sorry I haven't replied here for a long time, I was a little busy.

So, with the help of one of my best friends - Mr. Google, I've discovered that there are many different versions of this joke (here's another one, for example http://www.qsl.net/k4mg/Personal/ZeDrem.htm ) and I can't recall which of them we had on the test. But it doesn't matter much.

It is obvious that this person confuses the interdental sounds with the alveolar ones. I'm convinced he doesn't fully perceive the difference between them, probably because he doesn't have them in his mother tongue (perhaps he was a Frenchman or a Russian). Now, what do u think, most people, who don't have interdental sounds in their languages, confuse drammatically the initial sounds in sink VS think or in thesis VS these? I would say that the words of the first pair tend to be mispronounced more frequently. The confusion in the second pair is rather possible because of the identical spelling, but not because of the indifferentiation of the sounds. That's why I answered (c). Of course, I've found support for this in the text of the joke itself, but I hope you excuse me, if I don't do this work once again, as there is another problem, which I have already mentioned: I don't have the exact version I had on the test. But the points are like those: the fact that he replaces all the "th"-s with "z" is much more important, than that he uses only one letter to represent both voiced and voiceless versions, because, in my opinion, the former is evidence that he considers "th" redundant (i.e., doesn't consider it a phoneme) and the latter can't hardly be a prove that he doesn't distiguish between the two kinds, because, as he is not a linguist, he just goes according to the previous spelling and not according to the sounds he hears.



Now, take a look at a real-life joke:

-How do you pronounce L at the end of words. is it a W or L like L at the end of the words like Spanish?
....
It's not like the Spanish L. You have to roll your tongue backwards a little more. It may sound like W in some languages (e.g. Russian).

http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2003/2908.htm

I didn't know we had W in Russian.

Добавлено спустя 2 минуты 49 секунд:

Actually, the sentence "It may sound like W in some languages (e.g. Russian)." is ambguious, but the second meaning is ruled out, because of the semantics.

[andrewsiak]

the sentence "It may sound like W in some languages (e.g. Russian)." is ambguious, but the second meaning is ruled out, because of the semantics.

By the way, it is a fact that the English "dark L" sounds as [w] at the end of the word or in front of a consonant (especially n British English). You will normally pronounce sell as [sew] or [seo], told as [t^wd], needle as [ni:dw] or [ni:do]. (

• is a very short sound)

[RawonaM]

"Dark L" is the velarized L and, as it is known, velarization has similar acoustic effects to the labialization (some activity around 1000 Hz). So, it is true that the labio-velar ([w]) sounds very similar to the velarized [l] (some people call it твердый л ), no one would argue about that, but this:

You will normally pronounce sell as [sew] or [seo], told as [t^wd], needle as [ni:dw] or [ni:do].

is wrong. You may have some areas, where they substitute (or just mix) the velarized lateral by the labio-velar, but it is certain that it is normally pronouced like that.

[andrewsiak]

...but it is certain that it is normally pronouced like that.

... is exactly what I am trying to convey to you... What's the prob?

[RawonaM]

...but it is certain that it is normally pronouced like that.

... is exactly what I am trying to convey to you... What's the prob?

I'm sorry. The problem is that I have forgotten to insert "not"

I'll try again:
...but it is certain that it is not normally pronouced like that.

[andrewsiak]

вот даже дискуссия по поводу того, как обозначать "вокализированный" dark L

Competing solutions

This means that the most important remaining decision is how to symbolize the product of l vocalization. For RP /l/ in non-prevocalic positions, EE uses a vocoid in the area [7, o, U, u]. This may be non-syllabic, typically forming the second element of a new diphthong in milk, shell etc.; or it may be syllabic, as in middle. Let us consider a selection of possible solutions, looking at the pros and cons of each.

   * first solution: write U, thus mIUk, SeU, "mIdU
         o pro: familiar symbol;
   o con: implies phonetic (and for the syllabic vocoid, phonemic) identity with the vowel of put, which is wrong. Articulatorily, the l-vocalization product is considerably further back than the /U/ of put, which can nowadays be very central.
   * second solution: write w, thus mIwk, Sew, ("mIdw)
         o pro: reasonably intuitive for the non-syllabic vocoid; but we should need something else for the syllabic;
   o con: implies phonemic identification with prevocalic /w/, which is questionable; violates the general English phonotactic constraint against final semivowels. (To overcome the objection to syllabic w, John Maidment suggests using an omega, w. But I find this unacceptable on general transcriptional and typographic grounds.)
   * third solution: write o, thus mIok, Seo, "mIdo
         o pro: phonetically reasonable, visually distinctive. On balance my preferred solution;
o con: in various other accents (Scottish, GenAm) this symbol is associated with the vowel of goat.

взято отсюда:http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/transcree.htm

[RawonaM]

вот даже дискуссия по поводу того, как обозначать "вокализированный" dark L

Да, вполне нормальная дискуссия, все хотят транскрибировать свой язык как можно точнее, включая аллофоны, но это не отменяет того, что это просто веляризованный (что и есть один из типов вокализации, в русской фонетике для некоторых звуков - "твердый") аллофон нормального /l/, даже несмотря на то, что в некоторых диалектах/местностях он произносится без прикосновения к алвеолам, а лишь только приближается к ним (т.е. перестает быть латеральным), но это никак не становится ни [w] ни

• , а каким-то алвеольно-велярным аппроксимантом.
  
  Посмотри тут liquids:
  http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/english/frameset.html
  
  Там где она произносит просто /l/ как фонему, звучит очень похоже на [о], но рисунок и слева видеозапись показывают, как это артикулируется - латеральный аппроксимант, ничего другого. А где идут примеры, то явно слышно, что это простой "твердый л" (в слове fall).

[Hopeful]

Курс английского языка для инженеров

Can You hear me -Ты можешь меня здесь
Undressed custom model - Голая таможенная модель
Manicure - Деньги лечат
I'm just asking - Я всего лишь король жоп
I have been there - У меня там фасоль
God only knows - Единственный нос бога
We are the champions - Мы шампиньоны
Do You feel alright? - Ты справа всех знаешь?
Bye bye baby, baby good bye - Купи купи ребенка, ребонок хорошая покупка
To be or not to be? - Пчела или не пчела?
I fell in love - Я свалился в любовь.
Just in case - Только в портфеле
I will never give up - Меня никогда не тошнит
Oh dear - Ах олень.
I saw my Honey today - Я пилил мой мед сегодня
I'm going to make you mine - Я иду копать тебе шахту
May God be with you - Майская хорошая пчелка с тобой
Bad influence - Плохая простуда
Phone seller - Позвони продавцу
Good products - Бог на стороне уток
Let's have a party - Давайте организуем партию
Watch out! - Посмотри снаружи!
I know his story well - Я знаю твой исторический колодец
Press space bar to continue - Космический бар прессы продолжает ..
I love you baby - Я люблю вас, бабы!

[Ripley]

In RP English dark l [ł] is only an alophone of the phoneme /l/, like in words milk, bill....
The pronunciation of this phoneme is similar to russian /l/

But in many varieties of English these realisations can be even "darker" - they tend to sound like

• or .

[RawonaM]

In RP English dark l [ł] is only an alophone of the phoneme /l/, like in words milk, bill....
The pronunciation of this phoneme is similar to russian /l/

But in many varieties of English these realisations can be even "darker" - they tend to sound like

• or .

Yeah, we've just discussed it. But one should notice that although it might sound like

• or , it is certainly not the sound that is articulated, as the lips are not rounded. And the unrounded back vowels sound different.

[Rezia]

Вот, еще тоже прикольчик:)



"Эйчары обязаны мотивировать сейлзов на приобретение коммуникейшн скиллз. В
частности, презентейшн скиллз. Именно скиллз, а не нолледж, как считают
некоторые, вообще часто определяют саксесс в бизнесе. И дело не только в
профите. Своеобразным бенефитом от работы может быть и обычный сатисфекшн,
которого нам всем так не хватает. Поэтому грамотный эйчар, проведя ассесмент
и определив ниддингс будущих партисипантов, заказывает трейнинг. И не
простой. Одно из главных условий трейнинга для сейлзов - экшн. Только тогда
мы можем рассчитывать на драйв, с которым пипл вернется на уокинг плейс.
Этот драйв для них - настоящий пойнт оф энтер, если говорить языком
мистификейшн. Если драйв накачан, топик трейнинга не импотант. Вобщем, и
разбираемые кейсы не импотант. Совершенно отдельная тема - экспаты. Для них
топики и кейсы - хедлайн. На трейнинги с трудом ведутся, им подавай тьютора
или на худой конец коуча. А какой с коучем драйв?! Тем более с тьютором.
Ведут себя, как стюпид, как ни бейся. Особенно это касается топов. А с
випами вообще говорить не о чем. Так и хочется развести руками и
воскликнуть: <Мазафака!!!>"

[Anonymous]

An Irishman , an Englishman and a Scot were sitting in a bar .

  The view was fantastic , the beer exellent , the food exceptional .
 
  '' Y'ken ,'' said the Scotsman, '' I still prefer the pubs back hame.
    Why, in Glasgow there's a wee bar called McTavish's. Now, the land
   lord there goes out of his way for the locals so much that when you
    buy 4 drinks, he'll buy the 5th drink for you.''

         ''Well,'' said the Englishman, ''at my local, The Red Lion, the barman
   there will buy your 3rd drink after you buy the first two.''

            ''Ahhh, that's nuttin,'' said the Irishman.
       ''Back home in Dublin, there's O'Driscoll's Bar. Now, the moment
   you set foot in the place, they'll buy you a drink, then another, all
   the drinks you like. Then, when you've had enough drinks, they'll take
   you upstairs and see that you get laid, all on the house.''

            ''Well,'' said the Englishman, ''did this actually happen to You ?''

  ''Not me myself, personally, no,'' said the Irishman, ''but it did happen
        to my sister.''

[Anonymous]

....и еще один простой анекдотик，немножко грубоватый ......

  Vovochka returns from school and says he got an 2 in arithmetic.

   ''Why?'' asks the father ?

  ''The teacher asked 'How much is 2 by 3 `'' I said `6,` replies Vovochka.

   ''But that's right !''  says his dad.

   ''Yeah, but then she asked me ''How much is 3 by 2 ?''

   ''What's the fu....ng difference ?'' asks the father.

         ''That's what I said !'' .............

[RawonaM]

''Not me myself, personally, no,'' said the Irishman, ''but it did happen
to my sister.''

[Anonymous]

...t'has nothing to do with me...just showed a couple of samples....

[ArtAllm]

Old joke but a goodie....




Three Texas surgeons were arguing as to which had the
greatest skill.  The first began: "Three years ago, I
re-attached seven fingers on a pianist. He went on to
give a recital for the Queen of England."

The second replied: "That's nothing. I attended a man
in a car accident.  All his arms and legs were severed
from his body. Two years after I re-attached them,  he
won three gold medals for field events in  the
Olympics."

The third said: "A few years back, I attended to a
cowboy. He was high on cocaine and alcohol when he
rode his horse head-on into a Santa Fe freight train
traveling at 100 miles per hour. All I had to work
with was the horse's ass and a ten gallon hat. Last
year he became president ...

[RawonaM]

Last
year he became president ...

[ArtAllm]

Hope you all get also a kick out of this one...
 
 

 Important announcement below:
 The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been
 reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European
 communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. As
 part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English
 spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a five-year
 phased plan for what will be known as Euro English ("Euro" for short).
 
 In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c". Sertainly,
 sivil servants will reseive this news with joy. Also, the hard "c" will
 be replaced with "k". Not only will this klear up konfusion, but
 typewriters kan have one fewer letter.
 
 There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the
 troublesome "ph" will be replaced by "f". This will make words like
 "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.
 
 In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted
 to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible.
 Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters, which have
 always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the
 horible mes of silent "e"s in the languag is disgrasful, and they would
 go.
 
 By the fourth year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing
 "th" by "z" and "w" by "v".
 
 During ze fifz year, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords kontaining
 "ou", and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of
 leters. After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl riten styl. Zer
 vil be no mor trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu
 understand ech ozer.
 
 Ze drem vil finali kum tru.

[RawonaM]

Hope you all get also a kick out of this one...

We had it before, look on the previous pages. Even twice, I guess.

[ArtAllm]

We had it before, look on the previous pages. Even twice, I guess.

Yes, you are right, it was posted by Hopeful on Sep 16 2004, 21:55.

But it was formatted like a quote, without breaks, gaps and word wrapping, so I didn't pay much attention to it.

BTW, the quoted texts are almost unreadable...  the text size is too small.

Sorry...


Добавлено спустя 33 минуты 36 секунд:

Another try...




A Swiss man, looking for directions, pulls up at a bus
stop where two Englishmen are waiting.

"Entschuldigung, koennen Sie Deutsch sprechen?" he
says. The two Englishmen just stare at him.

"Excusez-moi, parlez vous Francais?" The two continue
to stare.

"Parlare Italiano?" No response, "Hablan ustedes
Espanol?" Still nothing. the Swiss guy drives off,
extremely disgusted.

The first Englishman turns to the second and says,
"Y'know, maybe we should learn a foreign language...."


"Why?" says the other, "That fellow knew four
languages, and it didn't do him any good."

[RawonaM]

BTW, the quoted texts are almost unreadable... the text size is too small.

You are not the first one who says it, so I've made it bigger right now. How is it?

Sorry...

It's ok.

"Why?" says the other, "That fellow knew four
languages, and it didn't do him any good."

[iskender]

BTW, the quoted texts are almost unreadable... the text size is too small.

You are not the first one who says it, so I've made it bigger right now. How is it?

Oh! That's brilliant!:yes: And I've got another idea. May be it will be useful to darken a little bit the colour of the quoted text... May be something like this.