Author Topic: Язык без слов  (Read 653 times)

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Offline Gleki Arxokuna

  • Posts: 528
« on: September 3, 2014, 13:54 »
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Дискуссия в Facebook:

* Gestures like "look there" is not a word. However, ASL *is* a language with words. Let's not mix these two types of gestures. So yes, zero-word language is possible.
** ASL has words, in fact it has dictionaries of those words. So ASL is not an example of a zero-word language.
*** Yes, as I said ASL is a language with words. However, "look there" gesture is not a word and thus is separate from ASL. "look there" is an example of zero-word languages.
****Okay. But even if the "look there" gesture does have a specific meaning (and such gestures are common in the world), it isn't a language. It's just one lexical item. You can't say anything else (e.g., "Can we talk about something else now?") with it.
*****What is "language" then? Where is the border between a language and not-language?

1. "look there" gesture - not a language
2. "Look to the north" uttered - a language.

The result is the same in both cases: the meaning is transferred as intended.
Both are signals and signs.
The only difference I can see is the lack of Chomsky's "normal" syntax in the first example. Is this enough for denying case 1. to be a language?

******Neither 1 nor 2 is a language all by itself. Either could be part of a language, not a whole language on its own. A language can be used to talk about anything. Single sentences or gestures are not languages on their own.
The fact of being a gesture vs a spoken utterance is irrelevant.

Краткий перевод:
1. Жест "вон там" не имеет слов
2. Сказанная фраза "Посмотри на север" имеет слова.

Достаточно ли отсутствие привычного синтаксиса для того, чтобы 1. не мог быть назван языком в лингвистическом смысле?
Что более эффективно, научить людей системе, которая паразитирует на реальных языках, и несколько упрощает их, исключая некоторые детали фактических исторических языков; или же более эффективно иметь большое количество языков.Ложбан_и_самогоноварениеРеволюционный_привет!/Советский


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