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English :)

Автор Леонид, апреля 20, 2004, 22:31

0 Пользователи и 3 гостей просматривают эту тему.

RawonaM

Цитата: ?эл?нMr. Rawonam, I think that you are quite нетерпимый here, aren't you?
As for the matter of a tag question here, I would like to say that, IMHO, usually tag questions use the same verb as in the main clause.
A tag question is a regular question with an auxiliary verb and a pronoun as a subject, while rest of the sentence is omited. The presence of negation is usually in the opposite state of the statement.
I doubt you can call the first sentence "main clause", because the tag question is not part of it, they're both on the same level in the hierarchy.

You have been sick, haven't you (been sick)?
You have a book, don't you (have a book)?
You don't smoke too much, do you (smoke too much)?

And you can never use a content verb to create tagging:
*She doesn't eat, eats she?
This one sounds bad, doesn't it? :)

Цитата: ?эл?нBTW, Is my usage of the russian word correct?
Yes, quite correct :) What's your mother tongue?

andrewsiak

A choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
той ще ся не вродив, щоб усім догодив.

?эл?н

Спасибо Андрьюсяк
Это именно то, что я имел в виду.

Thanl you Andrewsiak!
That's exactly what I meant.

To Rawonam.
My mother tongue is Japanese.

RawonaM

Цитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.

Цитата: ?эл?нTo Rawonam.
My mother tongue is Japanese.
Cool :) How have you found this forum?

Katarina Magna

Цитата: NordWell, in a way I have a degree. I studied English literature at school and at the university, and my field of study is Romano-Germanic philology with all of its aspects. Besides, I simply enjoy reading Chauser (although it's quite attritional to look up a new word in a textbook on the history of English just to know how to pronounce it), Chesterton and Yeats.

Oh, really? I like Chaucer too, as well as the other English medieval texts.
Sometimes, its hard to keep the pronunciation clear medieval. I should controll myself to pronouce some words the way they really was pronounced in the time of Chaucer.
I studied Middle English and Early Modern English (Elisabethian) a little, just for interest.
Dear Nord, dont u have an electronic version of the "Romant of the Rose"? I cant find it  :(
BTW, my favorite English poet is William Blake.
Meliketh all of his works.
Шулуун замаар мєлхєж яваа хvн зам гажсан гvйгчийг гvйцдэг.

andrewsiak

Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.
Exactly. Did you not know? It is actually the only acceptable form in Queen's English.
той ще ся не вродив, щоб усім догодив.

Crimson Pig

Sorry for a change of a nickname. I just got registered.

To Rawonam
Well, saying that my mother tongue was japanese is not exactly correct. I have 3 mother tongues to that extent, japanese, english and mongolian.  My parents are mongolians who lived in japan and new zealand for a better part of their (and my) lives. That's why my knowledge of mongolian leaves a lot to wish. Also I am very much interested in russian. I studied it for a long time, and still I don't feel that I have mastered this language.

As for the tag-question, when you said those things, I just felt that 'have you' was the correct one, although with the other one, with 'don't you' I couldn't find anything wrong.

RawonaM

Цитата: andrewsiak
Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: andrewsiakA choice of a 'haven't you' or 'don't you' tag question to follow 'you have' in the main clause is a matter of the British (haven't) or American (don't) English.
Oh, really? You mean in British it is also possible to say "Have you a book?" or it's only about tagging? I'll check it.
Exactly. Did you not know? It is actually the only acceptable form in Queen's English.
No, I didn't :oops: It sounds kinda funny to me, maybe because I always hear only American, our teachers laught at British accent and the way they talk, so my knowledge of English does not include extremely British expressions. Now I see why they don't like it :)
Saying "Have you a book?" is not consistent with English grammar - the rules of creating a question, I definitely won't use it  :_1_22  :_1_12

Цитата: Crimson PigTo Rawonam
Well, saying that my mother tongue was japanese is not exactly correct. I have 3 mother tongues to that extent, japanese, english and mongolian. My parents are mongolians who lived in japan and new zealand for a better part of their (and my) lives. That's why my knowledge of mongolian leaves a lot to wish. Also I am very much interested in russian. I studied it for a long time, and still I don't feel that I have mastered this language.
Good, so you are welcome to master it here. People, including me, will be glad to help you with it. But please... capitalizing is very important in English, especially "japand and new zealend" looks very bad...  
Цитата: Crimson Pign Pig"]As for the tag-question, when you said those things, I just felt that 'have you' was the correct one, although with the other one, with 'don't you' I couldn't find anything wrong.
Good, it's always good to know smth new. And I'm sorry for my "must be" :) It's just the way I talk, when I'm sure about smth.  :wink:

Nord

To Katarina Magna: unfortunately, I haven't got it, but I can offer you "Sir Gawayne and the Greene Knyhte" instead :). As for Blake, I can understand your choice.

Tyger, tyger, burning bright
In the forest of the night!
What immortal glare or eye
Has made thy fearful symmetry.

And what can you say 'bout Yeats & Chesterton?
                              * * *
As for the tag questions, in Irish English, for instance, it is common to omit the initial 'yes' or 'know' and use only 'isn't it' in all the cases, e.g. "He never liked Sassenachs /Englishmen, from Irish Sasanach, Sasanachaí 'Saxon, Englishman'/, isn't it?" - "It is." or (although it's a general question, it bends this rule too) "He sez you were near that castle. Did you get inside?" - "I did".
Mol an lá um thráthnóna. - Готовь сани летом, а телегу зимой (досл. Пой славу дню накануне вечером.)

andrewsiak

Цитата: rawonamNo, I didn't :oops: It sounds kinda funny to me, maybe because I always hear only American, our teachers laught at British accent and the way they talk, so my knowledge of English does not include extremely British expressions. Now I see why they don't like it :)
Saying "Have you a book?" is not consistent with English grammar - the rules of creating a question, I definitely won't use it
1. Well, I think that the Brits don't really care if the Americans laugh at them, as it is actually the other way around: Brits laughing at American rednecks. I am actually surprised that 'your teachers' laughed at the British accent as the Americans normally perceive it as a "more cultural and intelligent" accent than their own. You can even see it in their movies: all nice and well-educated gentlemen speak British vs. American cowboys uttering their cowboyish sounds   :P
2. 'Have you a book' is very much consistent with the English grammar since the 'have' verb has the same status as the 'be' verb. You don't say 'Do you be there?', do you?
той ще ся не вродив, щоб усім догодив.

Digamma

Rawonam, your favourite method returned:
Google: "have you" -been: 6,430,000 records
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

RawonaM

Цитата: andrewsiak2. 'Have you a book' is very much consistent with the English grammar since the 'have' verb has the same status as the 'be' verb. You don't say 'Do you be there?', do you?
I'm quite surprised that I have to explain this to you: there are two "have"s in English, the auxilary ("You have eaten my plumcake.") and the simple content verb ("You have a book."). The following sentence contains both of them: "I have had a book."
The rule for creating a question is to raise or add an auxilary. Thus, it is obvious that if "have" is a content verb, the question should be created using an auxilary.
(OK-OK, I know logic doesn't work for languages, so I'm trying to kinda find excuses for my habits  :D)

Цитата: DigammaRawonam, your favourite method returned:
Google: "have you" -been: 6,430,000 records
Look above. "have" can be an auxilary, we don't talk about it. It could be "have you seen" "have you slept" etc. It could also be "They have you".
Now look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000

I guess you got it 8)

Digamma

Цитата: rawonamNow look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000

I guess you got it 8)

Thats not as relevant as you think! Look, in most of these cases "have you" will be a tag question at the end of sentence. Damn, Google has no way to find "have you?" (and most of search engines too), but note that even Rambler found 1027 pages with "have you?" (most of them are kinda those we're talking about).
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

RawonaM

Цитата: Digamma
Цитата: rawonamNow look at relevant statistics:
"Have you a": 59,900
"Do you have a": 4,970,000

I guess you got it 8)

Thats not as relevant as you think! Look, in most of these cases "have you" will be a tag question at the end of sentence. Damn, Google has no way to find "have you?" (and most of search engines too), but note that even Rambler found 1027 pages with "have you?" (most of them are kinda those we're talking about).
I don't get, what is not as relevant as I think?
First, this is not only about tag questioning, this is about sentences like "Have you a book?". Second, "have you?" can be smth like "You haven't seen him, have you?", which is normal (read: not British-specific) use. :)
The phrases that I gave reveal information about sentences we are discussing.

Digamma

Цитата: rawonamI don't get, what is not as relevant as I think?
You explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you? ;)

P.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

andrewsiak

Цитата: rawonamThe rule for creating a question is to raise or add an auxilary. Thus, it is obvious that if "have" is a content verb, the question should be created using an auxilary.
(OK-OK, I know logic doesn't work for languages, so I'm trying to kinda find excuses for my habits  :D)
Your statement doesn't apply though to the verb 'to be', which can also be 'a content verb' and an auxiliary one. Once again, you say: 'Were you there?' (content) and 'Were you standing there?' (auxiliary) just as 'Have you a book?' (content) and 'Have you been there' (aux.).
My point is, 'to be' and 'to have' are special verbs that do not exactly follow the general syntax rules for verbs. When saying 'Do you have a book?' an American merely simplifies the existing pattern, equalizing the verb 'to have' with th rest of the verb pool (why doesn't he do with to the verb 'to be' is a good question), whilst a British preserves a more classical rule when saying 'Have you a book?'.
той ще ся не вродив, щоб усім догодив.

Katarina Magna

Цитата: Nordunfortunately, I haven't got it, but I can offer you "Sir Gawayne and the Greene Knyhte" instead
Oh, thanx, I would read it with great pleasure :)
But nevertheless I want to read "The Romant of the Rose".

Did you read Milton's "Paradise Lost"? Thats cool.
Also I like the poetry of Aleister Crowley (what do you think 'bout his poetry?).
My favorite poem of Crowley is "The Wizard Way:
Цитировать

         VELVET soft the night-star glowed
         Over the untrodden road,
         Through the giant glades of yew
         Where its ray fell light as dew
         Lighting up the shimmering veil
         Maiden pure and aery frail
         That the spiders wove to hide
         Blushes of the sylvan bride
         Earth, that trembled with delight
         At the male caress of Night.
         .............
         He had plucked the hazel rod
         From the rude and goatish god,
         Even as the curved moon's waning ray
         Stolen from the King of Day.
         He had learnt the elvish sign;
         Given the Token of the Nine:
         Once to rave, and once to revel,
         Once to bow before the devil,
         Once to swing the thurible,
         Once to kiss the goat of hell,
         Once to dance the aspen spring,
         Once to croak, and once to sing,
         Once to oil the savoury thighs
         Of the witch with sea-green eyes
         With the unguents magical.

Can you understand perfectly the first fragment without dictionary? I was unable to do it for the first time :(
As for Blake. That one you cited is one of my beloved verses of Blake. Also i like "The poison tree"

Цитата: Nord
And what can you say 'bout Yeats & Chesterton?
I like Yeats, beatifull poetry. Unfortunately,  I never didnt read Chesterton, so cant say nothing about...  :(
Шулуун замаар мєлхєж яваа хvн зам гажсан гvйгчийг гvйцдэг.

RawonaM

Цитата: DigammaYou explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you?
Yes, because there is no crucial difference between a tag question and a regular question and I can't think of a string to search at Google, which would give me all the appereances of "have you?" tagging a question about "having".

Цитата: andrewsiakYour statement doesn't apply though to the verb 'to be', which can also be 'a content verb' and an auxiliary one. Once again, you say: 'Were you there?' (content) and 'Were you standing there?' (auxiliary) just as 'Have you a book?' (content) and 'Have you been there' (aux.).
My point is, 'to be' and 'to have' are special verbs that do not exactly follow the general syntax rules for verbs. When saying 'Do you have a book?' an American merely simplifies the existing pattern, equalizing the verb 'to have' with th rest of the verb pool (why doesn't he do with to the verb 'to be' is a good question)
So, according to your train of thought, "do" also belongs here. So it should be: "Do you see?" (aux.) and *"Do you homework?" (content, instead of "Do you do homework?").

Цитата: andrewsiakwhilst a British preserves a more classical rule when saying 'Have you a book?'.
I think, the process was exactly the opposite, the original rule of forming a question was "Do you have...?" and the American preserved it, while British had their own development, influenced by the auxilary "have".

And "to be" is usually an exception in most languages, because of it's high frequency.

Цитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".

Aramis

Цитата: Katarina MagnaI like Yeats, beatifull poetry. Unfortunately, I never didnt read Chesterton, so cant say nothing about...

Excuse me but that construction is impossible. You can choose either 'I never read Ch...' (better 'I've never read') or 'I didn't ever read' (but even that sounds strange)... Good luck!

RawonaM

Цитата: AramisYou can choose either 'I never read Ch...' (better 'I've never read') or 'I didn't ever read' (but even that sounds strange)... Good luck!
The second one sounds strange, because it is very colloquial (meaning incorrect). The standard form is "I haven't ever read". (With 'ever' and 'never' one must use Present Perfect.)
By the way, I think in spoken language of low classes what Katarina said is grammatical.

Digamma

Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: DigammaYou explicitly removed tag questions from consideration, didn't you?
Yes, because there is no crucial difference between a tag question and a regular question and I can't think of a string to search at Google, which would give me all the appereances of "have you?" tagging a question about "having".

That's why I shifted away from Google to demonstrate it. (Is "shift away" correct here?)

Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".
Not so obvious for me. It can be a case when most of dialects lose norm (compare with Russian "ложить") - that's why I say you have to check it carefully.
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

Nord

Katarina Magna, here is a poem by Chesterton for yoo to have a look at.

A Ballade of Suicide

The gallows in my garden, people say,
Is new and neat and adequately tall;
I tie the noose on in a knowing way
As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
But just as all the neighbours--on the wall--
Are drawing a long breath to shout "Hurray!"
The strangest whim has seized me. . . . After all
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

To-morrow is the time I get my pay--
My uncle's sword is hanging in the hall--
I see a little cloud all pink and grey--
Perhaps the rector's mother will not call--
I fancy that I heard from Mr. Gall
That mushrooms could be cooked another way--
I never read the works of Juvenal--
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

The world will have another washing-day;
The decadents decay; the pedants pall;
And H.G. Wells has found that children play,
And Bernard Shaw discovered that they squall,
Rationalists are growing rational--
And through thick woods one finds a stream astray
So secret that the very sky seems small--
I think I will not hang myself to-day.

ENVOI
Prince, I can hear the trumpet of Germinal,
The tumbrils toiling up the terrible way;
Even to-day your royal head may fall,
I think I will not hang myself to-day.
Mol an lá um thráthnóna. - Готовь сани летом, а телегу зимой (досл. Пой славу дню накануне вечером.)

RawonaM

Цитата: Digamma
Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: DigammaP.S. BTW, "British specific" is quite disputable... Maybe it's American specific to avoid using "have you" as tag question. I think you need to check Australian, etc.
Digamma, you saw that the use of "do" to form "having" questions is 83 times more frequent, so it is obvious that only a few dialects use "have you...?".
Not so obvious for me. It can be a case when most of dialects lose norm (compare with Russian "ложить") - that's why I say you have to check it carefully.
I didn't say it was obvious what the original way of asking such questions was. I said that it was obvious that a few dialects had the "have you..?" (meaning synchronously).

Katarina Magna

Gentlemen, double negative is common in American (and British too) colloquial language. There's nothing incorrect. Dont u think so, Rawonam?
If I said "I havent never read"  :?:
I've been in New York and Los Angeles and I've heard such a variant.
To be honest, I like Ebonics  :)
I can speak Ebonics a little. And you?
Шулуун замаар мєлхєж яваа хvн зам гажсан гvйгчийг гvйцдэг.

Digamma

Цитата: rawonamI didn't say it was obvious what the original way of asking such questions was. I said that it was obvious that a few dialects had the "have you..?" (meaning synchronously).

:) But what is the non-dialect kind of English? I think British English, isn't it? What is the literary language in this case?
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

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