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double negation

Автор paul_kiss, декабря 5, 2005, 21:20

0 Пользователи и 1 гость просматривают эту тему.

paul_kiss

How about double negation?
"They don't show no love"
"I don't need no excuses" etc

Is is still a sign of being uneducated or it's more or less ok nowadays?

Dark

Well, in the scope of good old English grammar it is terrible. But one can come across such cases quite often. It used to be a sign of being uneducated before... Now it is kind of fashionable to make such mistakes on purpose. If the Beatles and the Rolling Stones spoke like that, everyone can...

Elik

The Beatles and the Rolling Stones never spoke like that!

Double negation shows that the speaker is an ignorant and uneducated person. Period.

Sometimes educated people use double negation when they try to sound sarcastic.

You can hear such expressions in songs, because they imitate the speech of the black gangs (rap songs) or white ranchers (country songs). But never try to use the double negation in your speech. It's a very bad English!

RawonaM

Well, this is a theoretical section, so it is worth noting that double negation is not a new feature of the language, but rather old. In the 16-17th centuries the grammarians labelled it wrong because of logical considerations — in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.

paul_kiss (guest)

Цитата: "RawonaM" от
in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.
But in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda".

~ paul_kiss

RawonaM

Цитата: paul_kiss (guest) от декабря  6, 2005, 16:49
Цитата: "RawonaM" от
in logic, if you negate something twice, you make it positive.
But in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda".
And in many other languages.

Rezia

"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

Elik

I am dead sure. I heard many interviews of the Beatles and Stones. They spoke proper English as 90% of the English speaking population does.


Rezia

Цитата: Elik от декабря  6, 2005, 19:20
I am dead sure. I heard many interviews of the Beatles and Stones. They spoke proper English as 90% of the English speaking population does.


Yes, I see. But are you also sure about the lyrics? 
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

Elik

Lyrics have their special style. Don't try to follow the patterns of the songs in your spoken English! It will sound ridiculous.

They may sing "I ain't got no style" in some rock'n'roll, but they never spoke in such a manner.

Rezia

"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

Dark

Elik, I meant songs... It's not the interviews that most people listen to, but the songs. And in the songs there are loads of grammatical mistakes made for stylistic purposes! Including the double negation. I can reinforce my statement with numerous examples if you like.

Rezia

"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

ginkgo

Цитата: Dark от декабря  7, 2005, 23:57
Elik, I meant songs... It's not the interviews that most people listen to, but the songs. And in the songs there are loads of grammatical mistakes made for stylistic purposes! Including the double negation.

Nobody is denying that, as far as I see. The point that Elik made some posts above was that one shouldn't copy the style of the song lyrics into the "normal" speech. An interview gives a much better model for it... at least it  shows the usual way a person speaks.
"Θα φτιάξουμε μαρμελάδες."

Mustafa

Цитата: Elik от декабря  6, 2005, 07:33
Double negation shows that the speaker is an ignorant and uneducated person.
Sometimes educated people use double negation when they try to sound sarcastic.

Absolutely agree, and just wanted to add that it's a stylistic device sometimes used by English speaking writers. If you'd like to know more about all this, you can visit this site http://refolit.narod.ru - It's dedicated to interpretation of English. At the Stylistica page you can find out what double negation is.

Dark

"We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control..." Pink Floyd, "Another Brick in the Wall"

Just an example... I want to clear things up. I meant only the song lyrics, not everyday speech. But many people do speak like that. I would have never said that, if I hadn't heard it.

GayleSaver

It may be worth adding that Old English used the particle "ne-" for negation, like the other IE languages:  "Nis [ne + is] naenig swa snotor", "Tha dumban hundas ne magon beorcan" (from my book: no one is so wise, those dumb dogs can't bark)

Kryton

The double (multiple) negative is alive and kicking in the UK. Most working class people (read 'most people') use it on a regular basis. My landlady in Cambridge would say things like "ain't got no more chicken" or "can't do no more shopping neither", etc.


iopq

It is also sometimes a feature of AAVE (Afrivan American Vernacular English)
As far as I know, some West African languages have agreement by negation.
Poirot: Я, кстати, тоже не любитель выпить, хоть и русский.
jvarg: Профессионал? ;)

Rusiok

Цитата: RawonaM от декабря  6, 2005, 17:05
in Ru lang we do it exactly this way. "Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda".
An existence of 'the double negation in Russian' is a myth. The fact is that the russian particle 'ni' isn't negative. The 'ni' is an intensifying particle. Every russian schoolboy know about it. So we have got only one negation the 'ne'.
We can translate word for word 'Ya nikogda ne vernus syuda' as 'I shan't return here at any time'
"проект предлагал сократить разговорную речь путем сведения многосложных слов к односложным и упразднения глаголов" - Джонатан Свифт. Путешествие в Бальнибарби

Евгений

Do you mean that "nikogda", "nikto" etc. do not have any negation inside?
PAXVOBISCVM

Rusiok

Цитата: Евгений от февраля 26, 2010, 02:21
Do you mean that "nikogda", "nikto" etc. do not have any negation inside?
Not only I think so. All russian schoolchildren are taught this in the age of 14 years. In detailed sentences the pronouns with the particle "ni" are used only in combination with the particle "ne". But the negation with a "ne" without "ni" are quite common. Conclusion: "ne" is negation. "Ni" means the amplifying of it. And no any double negation!
One can be heard "Nikogda.", "Nikto." etc as a separate word.
They should be interpreted as incomplete answers. "Nikogda [ne <verb>].", "Nikto [ne <verb>]." No any negation inside. It is omitted!
"проект предлагал сократить разговорную речь путем сведения многосложных слов к односложным и упразднения глаголов" - Джонатан Свифт. Путешествие в Бальнибарби

Алексей Гринь

Цитата: Rusiok от февраля 26, 2010, 04:15
Not only I think so. All russian schoolchildren are taught this in the age of 14 years.
Wow, what a great argument.

But what about "Ya nikto"?
肏! Τίς πέπορδε;

Rusiok

Цитата: Алексей Гринь от февраля 26, 2010, 05:43
Wow, what a great argument.
I wrote this not as an argument. How to link to the source.

Цитата: Алексей Гринь от февраля 26, 2010, 05:43
But what about "Ya nikto"?
It's not a negation. What is negated? It mean "I have cost a few".
The negation of "someone" will be "Ya ne kto, a chto. Bot".  ;)
"проект предлагал сократить разговорную речь путем сведения многосложных слов к односложным и упразднения глаголов" - Джонатан Свифт. Путешествие в Бальнибарби

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