writer / rider in GenAmE

[vkladchik]

Is the diphthong in rider longer than writer in those dialects where the consonants are pronounced identically or are those two words homophonous?

Not to necropost, but one thing that hasn't been mentioned in this regard is that in some people (like me), the quality of the vowels in the diphthong differs in "write" and "ride," and this is reflected in other forms of the words, e.g., writing/riding, writer/rider.

Specifically (and without recourse to IPA symbols, which I don't know), "write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open -- closer to the Russian "a" as a matter of fact). The "ui" diphthong is also shorter than "ai," as others have mentioned in this thread.

And this distinction survives suffixing, which means that I distinguish between "writer" ("ruidr") and "rider" ("raidr") (the "d" here is a tongue-flap).

Just another point on the graph.

[regn]

Specifically (and without recourse to IPA symbols, which I don't know), "write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open -- closer to the Russian "a" as a matter of fact). The "ui" diphthong is also shorter than "ai," as others have mentioned in this thread.

Interesting! Are you talking about American English now? What region is this typical for?

[vkladchik]

Yeah, American English. I think this is a northern thing. I also pronounce the "h" in what, when, whether, etc. ('hwat" etc.).

I don't know if those two traits are linked.

[alkaigor]

"write" is something like "ruit" (with the "u" being the "u" in "up") and "ride" is "raid" (with the "a" being close to the "o" "obligation" but more open

It's the so-called "Canadian raising":

I'm not sure if it is useful, but I've found a little information about flapping and lengthening

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnsen/files/unpub/Flapping and underlying vowels in American English.pdf

[regn]

It's the so-called "Canadian raising":

Oh yeah, I think I know what that is. It's when "about" sounds almost like "aboat".

[vkladchik]

It's the so-called "Canadian raising":

Well, I don't know what it's called, but I can tell you I don't sound like a Canadian. I don't pronounce "about" like "a boat," for example. (Or say "eh?"  )

My father is from Michigan, but my mother is from Texas, and that's where I grew up (Houston).

[RawonaM]

It could also happen that you don't really have any difference, you only think you have I've never heard about two different "ai" diphthongs. I'll try to find out.

[regn]

I've never heard about two different "ai" diphthongs. I'll try to find out.

Actually, I think I know what he's talking about. He's right - they are different.

Also, I have just read today in a book on Russian phonetics that many AmE speakers have two fairly different diphthongs in the words "write" and "ride". And the difference is not based on length. The two sounds are clearly different in quality.

[vkladchik]

That's always a possibility, but as I sit here and say them, they sure sound different.

I'll see if there's a way to record this and put the sound file in the Файлы forum.

This difference is also in biting/biding. One interesting side-effect is that "ruidid" sounds fine but "raidid" doesn't. "Raidid" sounds like an incorrect realization of the past tense of "ride," but "ruidid" is fine because of "righted" (as in "he righted the chair").

[iopq]

From: (wiki/en) Canadian_raising

Canadian raising is a phonetic phenomenon that occurs in varieties of the English language, especially Canadian English, in which diphthongs are "raised" before voiceless consonants (e.g., /p/, /t/, /k/, /s/, /f/). /aɪ/ (the vowel of "eye") becomes [ʌi], while the outcome of //aʊ// (the vowel of "loud") varies by dialect, with [ʌu] more common in the west and a fronted variant [ɛʉ] commonly heard in Central Canada. In any case, the /a/-component of the diphthong changes from a low vowel to a mid-low vowel ([ʌ] or [ɛ]).

[vkladchik]

Right. As I said, it might be a northern thing, but it's definitely not Canadian-sounding. I definitely say [ʌi] in front of voiceless consonants, but this carries over when the [t] becomes a tongue-flap.

[iopq]

Right. As I said, it might be a northern thing, but it's definitely not Canadian-sounding. I definitely say [ʌi] in front of voiceless consonants, but this carries over when the [t] becomes a tongue-flap.

So biting and biding (as in biding your time) are both raised?

[vkladchik]

No, what I mean is this.

In my speech, I make this [ʌi]/[ai] distinction before unvoiced and voiced consonants.

However, that distinction remains even when the following unvoiced consonant becomes voiced, in the form of a tongue-flap.

In other words...

bite = bʌit
bide = baid

BUT!

biting = bʌiɾiŋ
biding = baiɾiŋ

ditto with
writing = rʌiɾiŋ
riding = raiɾiŋ

(I looked up the IPA symbol for the North American tongue flap, and apparently it's ɾ.)

So the ʌi/ai distinction survives the changing of the condition which initially creates it (voice of following consonant).