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Good American Speech

Автор Rezia, декабря 19, 2004, 23:11

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Rezia

I've read one nice book recently. "Good American Speech" by M.Mclean, 1941. These are some ideas from the book.
"The recognizable causes of America's poor speech are numerous; three of them merit special mention:
1) individual ignorance, carelessness, indifference, or prejudice.
2) The influence of masses of uneducated foreigners who speak English with many non-English sounds, with foreign stress, foreign choice and arrangements of words, and intonation.
3) Poor, inadequate, or no speech training in the nation's education system, especially at the lower levels where the greatest amount of speech training should be given".

So it's a possible answer to my question why it's so hard sometimes to understand American people.
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaSo it's a possible answer to my question why it's so hard sometimes to understand American people.
Rezia, I would suggest you to read books written by linguists. I will hint you, where the answer to your question lies: you have been taught the standard British English. It is exactly the opposite situation with me: I have learned the American English, and I have sometimes problems understanding the British. So, to sum up, there is nothing wrong with the Americans, the problem is that you are not used to their speech and you are not familiar with their phonetics/constructions/uses etc.

Peamur

I would not consider American Speech bad or poor. The same thing we could do with any other two languages (german and dutch) - but we know, that these are just two different languages which had a common ansector. Let american people develop their own tradition and their own language. I'm joking.

ЦитироватьSo it's a possible answer to my question why it's so hard sometimes to understand American people.


Compare: a brit will understand an american, but a sax won't do this with a swabian. Everything's okay between americans and brits (and those who learned brittish english). Anyway after a couple of thousands years american language will look completely different (as danish and german, f.e.) to british.

id est, don't worry, be happy! :D
É Contacht!
atpa peka kejklonaaannemanta apuka ne apo peka
зю зю зю .. зю ... зю . зю зю .. зю ... зю зю зю .. зю

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam
Rezia, I would suggest you to read books written by linguists.

I wonder why the author (the book I mentioned) claimed such things. Did he (or she) seriously mean that it is possible to bring American English to British standards as the whole book is about that?

Dear Mr Rawonam! I'll start to study American variant of the English language (I know just a bit about its peculiarities) as you've fairly revealed  my weak points.
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaI wonder why the author (the book I mentioned) claimed such things. Did he (or she) seriously mean that it is possible to bring American English to British standards as the whole book is about that?
That is a usual issue: people think that what belongs to them is more correct or better (or even THE correct and THE best) than that of the others.
So it's just the old point of view that some languages/dialects are better than the others, thinking: if I don't clearly understand someone, whose language is called the same name as mine, that means he speaks badly, simply ignoring the fact that everybody in his environment uses the same 'bad' language (quote: "poor speech") and they communicate perfectly.
Look, in our private conversation you've said that some Americans 'swallow' some sounds, therefore their speech is less understandable, I will tell you the same about the British: they 'swallow' the "r"s, which makes their speech sometimes unbearable. :_1_12

Цитата: reziaDear Mr Rawonam! I'll start to study American variant of the English language (I know just a bit about its peculiarities) as you've fairly revealed my weak points.
I'm glad for you! 8-)

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam
... about the British: they 'swallow' the "r"s, which makes their speech sometimes unbearable. :_1_12

I'll tell you what my point is. I'm not suggesting for a minute that the Americans should acquire the British English. Anyway it's absurd.
But your "unbearable" proves your personal attitude to the British variant. As for me I prefer [a:] [o:] etc.  But at the same time I don't hate those [a:r] [o:r] etc.  I even like them. And there is no "one thing is more correct than the other" - that's for sure :yes:
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaBut your "unbearable" proves your personal attitude to the British variant.
And I don't deny it. :) Everyone of us has his own preferences, but you must always have in mind that things don't become bad just because you don't like them.
You must understand that the book we discuss here shows exactly this attitude: "I don't like American English, I don't understand it, so let me write how stupid the way they speak is".
Though I don't like to hear [ɪmpo:tnt], I would not for a second think that it's the "individual ignorance, carelessness, indifference, or prejudice" that causes the dropping of the [r].

Цитата: reziaI'll tell you what my point is.
You forgot to tell. :)

Nord

Why should it be hard to understand American people? Don't you think that it simply shows that you are not accustomed to hearing their speech and don't even want to do that? Anyway, though I prefer speaking British (esp. Scouse and RP), I find American English (all of its variants, incl. Standard Western, Southern and New England ones) to be so finely archaic. There surely is beauty in its sounds. I've always said that there can't be a language with distastegul phonetical system.
This ic sprac (This I have said).
Mol an lá um thráthnóna. - Готовь сани летом, а телегу зимой (досл. Пой славу дню накануне вечером.)

Rezia

Цитата: NordWhy should it be hard to understand American people?

Have you had much experience of this sort? Share some!

Цитата: Peamurdmisu:lesanne
Let american people develop their own tradition and their own language. I'm joking.

I wonder what it is now. An accent of English or its dialect? I bet on the dialect though.
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaI wonder what it is now. An accent of English or its dialect?
Both, of course. A dialect usually has a peculiar accent. Furthermore, you cannot speak about "THE" American dialect, because in America itself there are lots of dialects (and the same applies to Britain).

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: reziaI wonder what it is now. An accent of English or its dialect?
Both, of course. A dialect usually has a peculiar accent.

You didn't get me quite right. "Accent" in my context meant "variety" as there is a bordering line between an accent and a dialect:

Цитата: Oxford concise dict of linguistics
Accent: a variety of speech differing phonetically from other varieties...Normally restricted by linguists to cases where the differences are at most in phonology: further differences , e.g. in syntax, are said to be between dialects.

So the question is whether American English represents an accent or a dialect as under such circumstances it can't be both. There are linguists who consider it a dialect or even a separate language. At the same time there are specialists who claim American English to be a variety of the English language (i.e. an accent). And the latter prove their point by the fact that American English possesses only a kind of peculiar vocabulary.  Neither grammar nor pronunciation (British/American) varies greatly.
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaTo the question is whether American English represents an accent or a dialect as under such circumstances it can't be both. There are linguists who consider it a dialect or even a separate language. At the same time there are specialists who claim American English to be a variety of the English language (i.e. an accent). And the latter prove their point by the fact that American English possesses only a kind of peculiar vocabulary. Neither grammar nor pronunciation (British/American) varies greatly.
I got you perfectly right, it's you who misunderstood the answer and the definition in the dictionary.
Let us define the terms in our words:
varieties - different "sorts" of something (in this case language).
accent - differences in phonology.
dialect - local differences in any linguistic aspect, usually includes phonology (i.e. includes accent).
etc.

Thus, American/British varieties (which doesn't mean only accents) are dialects, because they are local varieties, and that they have different pronunciations (which is really different) means that they have differences in phonology, i.e. different accents.

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam
Let us define the terms in our words

Kinda strange phrase. Could you, please, bother to explain a bit?
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: rezia
Цитата: rawonam
Let us define the terms in our words

Kinda strange phrase. Could you, please, bother to explain a bit?
Explain what?

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: rezia
Цитата: rawonam
Let us define the terms in our words

Kinda strange phrase. Could you, please, bother to explain a bit?
Explain what?

"The terms in our words". As it's hard to guess what you are driving at.:)
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: rezia
Цитата: rawonam
Цитата: rezia
Цитата: rawonam
Let us define the terms in our words

Kinda strange phrase. Could you, please, bother to explain a bit?
Explain what?

"The terms in our words". As it's hard to guess what you are driving at.:)
Ah... that you mean... :skler:
There is a syntactic ambiguity: I meant define smth in our words, and not the terms in our words, that is, in our words being an adverbial phrase, not an adjectival.
The second option is ruled out by semantics, it just doesn't make sense.

Rezia

Цитата: rawonam

Thus, American/British varieties (which doesn't mean only accents) are dialects

As we can deduce from the definition of a dialect, dialects imply differences in syntax. So, could you, please, kindly give a number of such examples for British and American "dialects""?
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaAs we can deduce from the definition of a dialect, dialects imply differences in syntax. So, could you, please, kindly give a number of such examples for British and American "dialects""?
From which definition? It doesn't imply, it might have, but it doesn't have to.
Take a look at: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/usgbintr.html

Rezia

Oh, I had a look. You've been really very helpful.:)

Добавлено спустя 18 часов 4 минуты 43 секунды:

Цитата: RawonaM
Цитата: reziaAs we can deduce from the definition of a dialect, dialects imply differences in syntax. So, could you, please, kindly give a number of such examples for British and American "dialects""?
From which definition? It doesn't imply, it might have, but it doesn't have to.
Take a look at: http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US1/REF/usgbintr.html

I am amazed at the scope of terms. Now they call them "variants" (your link). Actually this term "variant" responds to the point of view of Russian linguists.

Here is a typical quotation: "По своей структурной самостоятельности и независимости от функционирования варианты языка бывают разными: одни различаются на уровне самой структуры (без привлечения специфики функционирования), другие различаются именно на уровне функционирования при малом или относительно малом различии самой структуры. Что касается британского и американского вариантов языка, то они совпадают в своих наиболее важных и характерных структурных признаках. Различие между этими вариантами следует рассматривать на уровне функционирования при очень незначительном различии самой структуры вариантов" (Киссел, Швейцер, Головин).
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

RawonaM

Цитата: reziaI am amazed at the scope of terms. Now they call them "variants" (your link). Actually this term "variant" responds to the point of view of Russian linguists.
Local variant=dialect.

Цитата: reziaHere is a typical quotation: "По своей структурной самостоятельности и независимости от функционирования варианты языка бывают разными: одни различаются на уровне самой структуры (без привлечения специфики функционирования), другие различаются именно на уровне функционирования при малом или относительно малом различии самой структуры. Что касается британского и американского вариантов языка, то они совпадают в своих наиболее важных и характерных структурных признаках. Различие между этими вариантами следует рассматривать на уровне функционирования при очень незначительном различии самой структуры вариантов" (Киссел, Швейцер, Головин).
Variant (вариант) is not a term, it's just a word.

Rezia

Цитата: RawonaM
Variant[/i] (вариант) is not a term, it's just a word.

It IS a term. Bet 100$ :)
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

Digamma

Цитата: RawonaMVariant (вариант) is not a term, it's just a word.
NB! "here", 'cause every word can be a term. :)

But here it's not a term for sure - it seems like Rezia lost $100. :(
"Я родился на корабле, но куда он плыл и откуда никто не помнит..."

RawonaM

Цитата: DigammaNB! "here", 'cause every word can be a term.
Well, I thought it was obvious, but it's good that you mentioned it, maybe it was such only for me.

Добавлено спустя 13 минут 51 секунду:

And, I forgot to add, it is actually a term in phonetics.

Rezia

Цитата: Digamma
But here it's not a term for sure - it seems like Rezia lost $100. :(

It'll serve me right :).

Цитата: RawonaMAnd, I forgot to add, it is actually a term in phonetics.
And it is a term in Russian linguistics: the meanings of a polysemantic word  are called lexico-semantic VARIANTS. ;--)
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

Rezia

Цитата: RawonaM
Цитата: reziaI am amazed at the scope of terms. Now they call them "variants" (your link). Actually this term "variant" responds to the point of view of Russian linguists.
Local variant=dialect.

Цитата: reziaHere is a typical quotation: "По своей структурной самостоятельности и независимости от функционирования варианты языка бывают разными: одни различаются на уровне самой структуры (без привлечения специфики функционирования), другие различаются именно на уровне функционирования при малом или относительно малом различии самой структуры. Что касается британского и американского вариантов языка, то они совпадают в своих наиболее важных и характерных структурных признаках. Различие между этими вариантами следует рассматривать на уровне функционирования при очень незначительном различии самой структуры вариантов" (Киссел, Швейцер, Головин).
Variant (вариант) is not a term, it's just a word.

It's just dawned on me.
I've made a  translation mistake. There is no term "variant" - concerning languages, in this case there should be the term "variety", while "variant'' means "a form (word, sound, or grammatical form) which alternates with another under definable conditions"  (B.Spolsky "Sociolinguistics") as we put it earlier.
"Сон налягає. Кладе м'якеньку лапу на очі і на лице і шепче до вуха: спи..." (Коцюбинський)
"Ахаль çеç-им шурă юрĕ çав каç ÿкрĕ çĕр çине?" (чăваш юрри)
"Гэта не без гэтага" (з аднаго беларускага рамана)
"ნახევარი პური, ნახევარი ხარჩო"
"If you want to win the fight, say "I believe!" " (Eric)

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