Произношение t как [ч] в английском

Автор Драгана, ноября 25, 2007, 05:27

0 Пользователи и 1 гость просматривают эту тему.

Loafer

Да, ещё, конечно:

th: act, exempt, bent.  Slight aspiration if /t/ is final in coda after a nasal, /k/, or another stop.

regn

Перед флэпом долготы нет, кажется. То есть, степень долготы в "writer" и "write" одинаковая, а в "rider" больше.

write [ɹaɪt] --> writer [ɹaɪɾə˞]
ride [ɹaˑɪd] --> writer [ɹaɪɾə˞]

win [wɪˑn] --> winner [wɪɾ ̃ə˞] ~ winter [wɪɾ ̃ə˞]

Loafer

write [ɹajt] --> writer ['ɹaj-ɾə˞]
ride [ɹaj:d] --> rider ['ɹaj:-də˞]

Ну да. Классика.

"win [wɪˑn] --> winner [wɪɾ ̃ə˞] ~ winter [wɪɾ ̃ə˞]"
А зачем тут FLAP делать? Порсто /n/...  Нет?

win [wĨ:n] --> winner [wI:-nɚ] ~ winter [wĨ:-nɚ]

Просто оставлять назальность в "winter". Нет?

regn

Цитироватьride [ɹaj:d] --> rider ['ɹaj:-də˞]

Не так. перед флепом сокращение

regn

ЦитироватьА зачем тут FLAP делать? Порсто /n/...  Нет?

Не просто флэп, а носовой флэп

iopq

Poirot: Я, кстати, тоже не любитель выпить, хоть и русский.
jvarg: Профессионал? ;)

Loafer

Т.е. Вы оба говорите, что Ladder и latter различаются тем,то в latter AE будет короче. А на сколько он, тогда, буде короче "late"? Тогда что, "late" "lade" ОДИНАКОВОЙ длины?? Мне всегда казалось, что любое звонкое начало коды просто удлиняет ядро...


regn

Еще раз:

"ladder" и "latter" действительно произносятся одинаково.

но вот "late" и "laid" имеют разные конечные согласные + ВО ВТОРОМ СЛОВЕ ДЛИННЕЕ ГЛАСНЫЙ. 2 оппозиции. более, чем достаточно, для различения на слух

Loafer

""ladder" и "latter" действительно произносятся одинаково. "

What if you were to hyper-articulate them, i.e. without flapping? Would you make the same duration then, too? How do you define "flapped D" then? This way you could have any alveolar consonant flapped... Doh! Doesn't that defeat the very definition of "flap"?

regn

You can flap your t's, your d's, and your n's. You can't flap an "s", "l", or "z". You can't flap an "r" in American English, either. The British intervocalic "r" is something similar to the simple flap in Standard American. The nasal flap is an American feature. It occurs in intervocalic positions wherever we have a double "n" or an "-nt- / -nd-" cluster:

kidding [kʰɪɾiŋ]
bidding [bɪɾiŋ]
winner [wɪɾ ̃ə˞]
finding [faɪɾ ̃iŋ]
wanted [wɑɾ ̃əd] -- btw, I somehow wanna insert a glottal stop after the final "d" in this word, too... iopq, any ideas? do you pronounce it this way, too? I mean, with a glottal stop at the end?

That's the concept of the flap. Before a flap, vowels are short and act as if they were before a voiceless stop. I mean, the flap being the same for all kinds of consonants and clusters it replaces, the quality of the preceding vowel is kept the same for all instances, actually.


regn

If I hyper-articulate a word, I don't know, really... I tend to also stretch out the vowel, so I can't say if it's shorter or longer in a specific word. It's rather long. If I make it clear, of course.

Loafer

"your d's, and your n's."  - Hum. I see your point.  But I am not totally comfortable with the voicing part of it. To me the flapped /t/ is "one oscillation period" of the "russian-like" trill. It's really a "whipping flap of the tongue." /n/ and /d/ are both voiced to begin with. Which means -- I have to hold the tongue in the articulation position for some time (okay, make it a very short time) in order to let the cords vibrate. I'm not seeking to vibrate the glottis while making /t/s. In other words, /r/ (I don't like IPA's notation for it, I use just the reverse) is the shortest form of /t/:

(IPA notation)

try /Tʰɹaɪ:/
important / ɪ̃m-ˈPʰɔɹ-tʔntʰ/ или / ɪ̃m-ˈPʰɔɹ-tʰə̃ntʰ/
but /bət/
better /ˈbɛ-rɚ/

But again, I am not a linguist in any shape or form, and I need to explain that stuff on a "need to know" basis to ESL students. Cannot go beyond "simplified phonology for Russian speakers", you know?

Also, by "hyper-articulation" I mean "a good university lecturer", not  "a dictation to 6 year-olds". :) Just in case.

Loafer

Generally, my goal:

Make the student:

1. Be phonological analysis aware
2. As a direct by-product: understand American running speech almost 100% (subject to the lexis)
3. Second derivative: understand ANY English speech better
4. Third derivative: speak better

I'm not attempting to make "Russian Intelligence Residents" (Schtirlitz-like) for the USA. Just basic important stuff, ok?

iopq

Poirot: Я, кстати, тоже не любитель выпить, хоть и русский.
jvarg: Профессионал? ;)

Loafer

Действительно...

Но это из серии "pseudo-devoicing through shortening the vowel", как в "I have to go."

/aɪ-həf-tə-'goʊ/   in reality = /aɪ-hə̆v̥-tə-'goʊ/. In other words, just a seeming effect, not the essence.

Would that work?

Loafer

The degree of degeneration...

There's no way you could start ESL teaching with saying, "want it" = "wanted"! The intentions of your brain should still be: VOICELESS <> VOICED. Your ears may perceive things differently. There's an ideal, though. The closer you are to it, the more chances you have in landing a job as a national TV news announcer. Those minute differences...

Loafer


regn

The word "important" is pronounced with an unreleased voiceless nasal consonant:

[ɪm`pʰɔɹtⁿntʔ]

Насчет "wanted" согласен. После швы оппозиция по звонкости устраняется и согласный глоттализируется:

did [dɪˑd(ʔ)] ~ needed [niːɾədʔ]

Для особого clarity в "did" часто слышно release в конце, и он звонкий.

Loafer

Guys, again - there's no way one could teach that to pre-intermediate-plus ESL learners.
It's like intonation - the basic patterns about pitch, loudness and duration have to be explained to the learner, compared to Russian and ... left there. Intonation is up to the student to acquire. Most adults can learn intonation pretty well, unlike phonetics.

Also, I think that intonation is subject to change. If you stay long enough in a community you tend to acquire the intonation patterns of that community. If you change the community you will adopt different patterns. I think that intonation is a transitory thing and it rubs off on you easily.

Most new adult immigrants in the US from Russia quickly adopt American intonation, yet their speech remains heavily accented, because of:

1. phonetics
2. lack of fluency - they have to think of grammar and semantics all the time.

More important, these two factors inhibit their speech comprehension.

I would agree with the statement that intonation mistakes make accent more noticeable and communications in general more difficult. Yet these are the very reasons for self-adjustment process to kick in.

Agree?

iopq

Включи Friends в оригинале, так интонацию выучат. Фонетика самая главная long term потому что если говорить по-английски все время fluency будет. А вот акцент останется. Но не важно же для русских что в слове friendly произносится lateral release потому что в русском слове для он тоже произносится. Значит надо учить самое трудное. Трудные английские слова: Wednesday, twenty, epitome...
Poirot: Я, кстати, тоже не любитель выпить, хоть и русский.
jvarg: Профессионал? ;)

regn

I think that intonation differs from dialect to dialect. Also, it's TOTALLY different in GB and in the U.S. All the intonation patterns in America are different from their British equivalents. Actually, I think that it's the British intonation that's rather peculiar.

My intonation is slightly different from that of a regular New Yorker. My sounds, however, are OK. I mean, New Yorkers hear an accent and start asking me questions like "what state are you from?" Most people say I have some slight British features. Therefore, it works perfect if I say my mother came from GB. But since all of my European features have been fading here constantly, I think they're gonna disappear completely. Many of my friends say it's rather sad... But I've always been famous for accommodating my speech to the way they speak in the environment surrounding me. And I don't do it consciously. I guess it's just some kind of instinctive reaction I have.

What I definitely do notice in the speech of adult immigrants in the U.S. is that they all start speaking Russian with an accent after a while. It's funny 'cause their English remains heavily accented. Well, not only English. My aunt has lived in the Czech Republic for 15 years. She already speaks Russian with an accent. However, her Czech is accented and all Czechs think she's Slovak.

It's tricky. I guess that a guide in phonetics can only help you set up the main features of the sound system in a specific language. That's something that rarely happens to adults without training (unlike kids). Afterwards, I think, to reach the goal, it's necessary to consciously listen and try repeating the way native speakers say things. I think in this case, a guide with taped text and little hints could be useful. You know, something like "if you wanna say this correctly, mind your lips".

regn


iopq

Poirot: Я, кстати, тоже не любитель выпить, хоть и русский.
jvarg: Профессионал? ;)

regn

Мне "word" просто...

я не люблю сочетания типа:

border [`bɔ˞ɾə˞]
birthday [`bə˞θd̪eɪ]
visited [`vɪzɪɾədʔ]

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