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slavic latters and pronounciations

Автор matko, октября 14, 2004, 21:10

0 Пользователи и 4 гостей просматривают эту тему.

matko

Hi guys, sorry I cannot speak in Russian, but I'm from Croatia. Though we speak Croatian(Slavic langauge) I doubt that someone could understand me everything. That's why I am going to write in English. If you prefer, I can rewrite it in Spanish or in German. Or in Croatian:D

So, I'm really interested in the phonetics. I'd like to know the correct manner to pronounce some letters in as many languages as possible. Of course, Slavic countries. Baltics incluided.

Starting with the letter "L".
East(Russia, Belrus, Ukraine). In Russian, the L is really closed and dark. I know that in Belrus you have some letter, it's similar to Y with hat and it's something like Ł in Polish, right? What about Ukranian? Is it the same L as in Russian or different.
Next, letter Ś, is it the same in all countries or ??
H in Ukraine, do you have some "normal" H or it's always the H from the stomach? :)

West(Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland)
As well, I wanna hear something about L. I know that in Polish they have Ł, but it's more like W in English. Czech/Slovak??
After E, do you have to soften the last consonant just like after I. For example: hlavní ("hlavňí"). And after Y, in the same way as with I?

South(Croatian, Slovenian, Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian)
I know them most because they are near me (more or less):D

Thank you guys!


West expert

Цитата: matko
West(Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland)
As well, I wanna hear something about L. I know that in Polish they have Ł, but it's more like W in English. Czech/Slovak??
After E, do you have to soften the last consonant just like after I. For example: hlavní ("hlavňí"). And after Y, in the same way as with I?
L in Polish - you're correct. In Czech/Slovak there is not such a letter.
After E - you mean before E, don't you?
In Czech D,T,N is to be softened before I (i).
In the "soft" case before E, it has to be (ussually!) signed by soft sign upon this letter: ě Ě.
(In the group mě we read, of course, mňe - мне).
In another cases, there's a J before ě e.g. věra - vjera (вьера, вера).
Also there is no soft L in czech language.
In Slovak, there is no ě.
Before E, I the letters D, T, N, L are simply allways softened. (as in russian)
( There are some few exceptions, that can be derived from etymology, I guess)

Another unusual letters:
In czech:
Ů - long u ( can not be in the beginnig of the world),
ř - soft r (between r and zh=ž)
In slovak:
ä - like in "black", can it be simple e (or ev'rywhere between a-e)
ô - uo, where u is bilabial vowel "w" or in another description Ŭ,  ŭ .
This ô is allways read in one syllabe, e.g. kokôtik (a cock) [ko-kŭo-tik], not [ko-ku-o-tik].

Are you satisfied enough now, or another questions?
Shall be glad to answer them, if it's possible ...
:)
P.S. You can four-square write in Croatian...

west expert

Well, I have almost forgotten...
In the position before "y" there is no softening.

So e.g. tydzień (PL), týden(CZ)[-de-], týždeň(SK)[-ďe-] - it is allways [ty-][ты-] (a week/неделя, со дня по "той же день", семь дней))
Writing Y or I, it is by the etymological reasons (as it has remained in russian),
there is no difference between pronouncion of them (I hope).
In south slavic languages it's easier (no ypsilon "y"), isn't it? :)

In west slavonic group sometimes can be syllabic l,r (- liquids).
E.g. smrt(CZ) - the death,
blood - krev(CZ), genit. krve; krew(PL), gen.krwi (one syllabe!), krv(SK), gen. krvi;
up.luzh. kréj, gen. krwě; d.luzh kšew
(russian кров, крови - стр.сл. кръвь, кръве)

I think, there can be also the long kind of this l/r,
e.g. vĺča, vŕba - little wolf,wolfie/волк(уменш.), willow tree/ верба (ветла)
Except of polish language, I am not sure.

The soft syllabic L or the long soft syllabic L doesn't exist
in these normative languages.
As you can easy see, I'm only semi-expert.:D:mrgreen:

Vertaler

Стрч прст в крк и вынь сухим.

Евгений

PAXVOBISCVM

Марина

Цитата: Евгений
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenAnd how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??
Same as Uu. :)
Depends on a dialect. :yes:

Евгений

Цитата: Маринка
Цитата: Евгений
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenAnd how must one pronounce the Polish letter Óó ??
Точно так же, как и Uu. :)
Взависимости от диалекта. :yes:
By default, the standard language is usually meant. 8)
PAXVOBISCVM

west expert

Oh yeah, all written up here is absolutely true.:)
The polish letter ó has to be pronounced as "u".

The next unusual letters (all in Polish):
Though they had been discussed in this site, I leaved them to notice,
but now all together here again:
ę - nasal e, similar to french vin
ą - nasal o, similar to french bon
h - as "ch" in loch-ness
ć, ń, ś, ź - soft c, n, s, z (patalized) (I guess, this line is unnecessary)
The same as the last is pronouncion of "rz" and "sz" means "sh"(ш).

The soft signs can be written only upon these letters (c, n, s, z),
in the rest cases the patalisation is denoted by "i" (which then isn't pronounced).

I hope now is the description complete.
But as lady Mary says, everything depends on choosen dialect.8-)
I think, I am only quarter-expert.:D

ИванЪ Рабинович

Украинский вирус - не может быть злым. (це)Ян Ковач
я непремено бы книжку об себе бы написал (це)Твид

matko

Oh, thank you West Expert. I appreciate it.

I did not get what did you want me to do with Croatian, sorry...

Yes, you're totally right. We don't use ipsilon, Y. It's useless in our alphabet. And there is no softening in Croatian.
Example: Czech(tělo) Croatian(tijelo). Pronounciations [t'jelo<->tIELo]

In Croatian we have 7 vocals: A E I O U R IE(spelt as -ije- or -je-)
And lots of vocal and consonant changes sucha as sibilarization, palatalization, lossing of A or E etc etc........
For instance ČrnomerEc //gen.sg. ČrnomeRCa
(peach)-breskva, //gen.pl br``esÂkâ

4 accents ( á à â ``a) the R can be accented as well ŕ, `r, r^ etc... (the last one is not ř as in Czech, but normal R, long one)

As you have seen the R is vocal too so KRV, gen.krvi, VRT(garden), TRG(square), VRČ (cup) etc...

I've read once in some linguistic book that the Croatian is the most melodical and the richest (in grammar) language. Of course, between Slavic languages only. Melodic because of the richness of the vocals and 4 types of accents.

If you need something, just ask. I'll be glad to help you if I can.

Vertaler

Цитата: matkoIn Croatian we have 7 vocals: A E I O U R IE
In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really name a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it it must be in every case a vowel, mustn't it? []...
Цитата: matkoWe don't use ipsilon, Y.
Maybe, any üpsilon or ypsilon or upsilon or ÿpsilon? Sure, you in Croatia can name it with I, but in English...
Стрч прст в крк и вынь сухим.

west expert

Цитата: matkoI did not get what did you want me to do with Croatian, sorry...
:o I don't understand. :_1_17 What did I want, please?:dunno:
I guess, nothing, only to inform You as much as I can...
Цитата: matkoI've read once in some linguistic book that the Croatian is the most melodical and the richest (in grammar) language. Of course, between Slavic languages only. Melodic because of the richness of the vocals and 4 types of accents.
Paying attentione to these facts - yes, looking to another - may-be not, perharps. 8-)
Matko, or Bambino, when somebody really likes for example a patalisation,
he shall prefer those slavonic languages, where it is. :dunno:
Asking for an answer of (any) slav is not serious, because ev'rybody sees
his own language to be the best! :) And he is right.
So the less-more objective opinion can be shown by the other tribes.
As a minimum, I think, Croatian language is very pleasantly and soft for listening,
yes, it's quite enough beautifull.
If You will have ev'ry now and then any question, just simply ask for, too.
If I'll know, I'll be glad to tell You.:)

To lady Mary: Can we suppose the letter "r" sometimes to be a wovel?
May-be, yes, as a minimum, it's in the function like that. 8-)

matko

Yes, it's true. R is now and then a vowel. I mentioned some cases so look it up.

L can be a vowel as well, but only in kajkavian dialect. For instance VLK (wolf), in standard Croatian it's VUK.

Vertaler

I repeat my question (and change my miss-printing:)).
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenIn this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?
Стрч прст в крк и вынь сухим.

RawonaM

Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenI repeat my question (and change my miss-printing:)).
Цитата: Vertaler van TekstenIn this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?
Even I don't get it... Could you try to rephrase it once again, please?


Ян Ковач

Цитата: ЕвгенийVertaler van Teksten пишет:
In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?
In my opinion, syllabic l/r remain consonants anyway, why not? :dunno:

Марина

Цитата: Ян Ковач
Цитата: ЕвгенийVertaler van Teksten пишет:
In this case I wanna ask Marina: can we really take a syllabic consonant as a vowel? I mean if we use not only our voice to form it, it must not be in every case a vowel, must it?
In my opinion, syllabic l/r remain consonants anyway, why not? :dunno:
Syllabic sonants remain sonants, same as non-syllabic vowels remain vowels, what's the problem? :_1_12

yuditsky

Цитата: МаринкаSyllabic sonants remain sonants, same as non-syllabic vowels remain vowels, what's the problem?
It depends on whether you think that every syllable must contain a vowel. If so, the r in krk is a vowel. Otherwise, there is no problem.
Best regards,
Alexey Yuditsky
Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
Department of Hebrew Language

Алекс


Sottoportego e corte dei zucchero 3094/b

Марина

Цитата: АлексI think that both in krk and in srpska there is a schwa before r.
Or after it. Actually, this is not a schwa, but a vocal on-/off-glide (or "irrational vowel"), which serves as a syllable peak. This is the reason, why /r/ is a syllabic phoneme in these words. 8-)

Алекс


Sottoportego e corte dei zucchero 3094/b

Марина

Цитата: АлексYes, it's like a short [ə]
Is its position fixed?
If its position were fixed, it would not be a) an irrational vowel, but a simple short one, b) there would be no syllabic sonorant. 8-)

Алекс

Reasonable. ::applause::
And how do the Serbs themselves pronounce it? For example, the word Србиjа?

Sottoportego e corte dei zucchero 3094/b

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